NAVIS ARB-51

[NoobMD]

Has anyone tried these active, but dac-passible speakers?

 

[NoobMD]

Has anyone tried these active, but dac-passible speakers?

Looks like nobody has. Hmm...

 

[amirm]

Since it is an Andrew Jones design, I expect it to sound good. I used to go to Audio shows and listen to him/audio products but haven't been in the last year so missed this specific model.

 

[NoobMD]

Since it is an Andrew Jones design, I expect it to sound good. I used to go to Audio shows and listen to him/audio products but haven't been in the last year so missed this specific model.

Amirm,

Thank you for your note. I was wondering if the ARB-51 could be a significant upgrade to the Audioengine’s A5+ wireless, which I have been listening to the past several months using a wired connection.

 

[TC!!]

I'm a bit late getting back to you but I have the floorstander version. I think a lot of people are put off by active speakers as they were never really seen as audiophile speakers. The approach Elac have taken with a 3 way design each with its own amplifier works really well, and their decision to make it completely analogue was another important decision for me.
Have a look at this thread and the videos posted there to see why people like these active speakers. They aren't just an investment for today but they'll also grow with your system as you add better sources to them.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-steve-guttenberg-like-active-speakers.8312/

 

[watchnerd]

Amirm,

Thank you for your note. I was wondering if the ARB-51 could be a significant upgrade to the Audioengine’s A5+ wireless, which I have been listening to the past several months using a wired connection.

Incremental improvement -- you're still dealing with a small box speaker with small drivers with the physics limitations that come with.

Significant upgrade would involve adding subs or getting bigger speakers.

 

[TC!!]

I'm a bit late getting back to you but I have the floorstander version. I think a lot of people are put off by active speakers as they were never really seen as audiophile speakers. The approach Elac have taken with a 3 way design each with its own amplifier works really well, and their decision to make it completely analogue was another important decision for me.
Have a look at this thread and the videos posted there to see why people like these active speakers. They aren't just an investment for today but they'll also grow with your system as you add better sources to them.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s-steve-guttenberg-like-active-speakers.8312/

Incremental improvement -- you're still dealing with a small box speaker with small drivers with the physics limitations that come with.

Significant upgrade would involve adding subs or getting bigger speakers.

Or moving from a 2 way speaker design to a 3 way speaker design, or a system with 6 amplifiers each operating after their crossovers, or an active system which puts all the amplification as close as possible to the drivers to give the best sound quality.
Mine are bigger but size isn't everything.

 

[watchnerd]

an active system which puts all the amplification as close as possible to the drivers to give the best sound quality.

I consider that an incremental improvement.

I have both active and passive speakers from the same manufacturer, using very similar tweeters. The difference is subtle, unlike add subs or going 3 way, etc.

Two way boxes (which I love, BTW) have diminishing returns and at some point getting the bass out of the mid/woofer by adding a sub, with high pass, or going 3 way has the best ROI.

 

[TC!!]

I consider that an incremental improvement.

I have both active and passive speakers from the same manufacturer, using very similar tweeters. The difference is subtle, unlike add subs or going 3 way, etc.

Two way boxes (which I love, BTW) have diminishing returns and at some point getting the bass out of the mid/woofer by adding a sub, with high pass, or going 3 way has the best ROI.

OK, what do you mean by going 3 way?

 

[watchnerd]

OK, what do you mean by going 3 way?

The usual meaning -- separate tweeter/mid/woofer, and where the woofer has enough Xmax and low enough Fs, with enough linearity, to delver lower distortion bass for the bottom octaves at required SPLs as compared to the same using a mid-woofer.

 

[TC!!]

The usual meaning -- separate tweeter/mid/woofer, and where the woofer has enough Xmax and low enough Fs, with enough linearity, to delver lower distortion bass for the bottom octaves at required SPLs as compared to the same using a mid-woofer.

The Elacs are a 3 way design.

 

[watchnerd]

The Elacs are a 3 way design.

Sure, technically.

But what's the Xmax and Fs of the woofer? And how's the bottom octave distortion as volume goes up?

 

[TC!!]

Sure, technically.

But what's the Xmax and Fs of the woofer? And how's the bottom octave distortion as volume goes up?

They sound really good and when I play them loud it makes my whole room shake.

I mean what do you want? You told the guy the Elacs won't be a substantial upgrade, you then say moving to a 3 way design is a substantial upgrade. I point out they are 3 way and instead of saying "Sorry, didn't realise." you pull Xmax and Fs out of your ass.

I own a very similar pair of speakers to the ones he's asking about, the amplifiers and 3/5 of the drivers are identical. In my opinion they will be a substantial upgrade on the A5+. My opinion.

 

[watchnerd]

They sound really good and when I play them loud it makes my whole room shake.

I mean what do you want? You told the guy the Elacs won't be a substantial upgrade, you then say moving to a 3 way design is a substantial upgrade. I point out they are 3 way and instead of saying "Sorry, didn't realise." you pull Xmax and Fs out of your ass.

I own a very similar pair of speakers to the ones he's asking about, the amplifiers and 3/5 of the drivers are identical. In my opinion they will be a substantial upgrade on the A5+. My opinion.

And my opinion, having owned gobs of two way speakers over the years, and using 2-way 5 inch nearfield monitors in my mixing studio, is that there are diminishing returns when trading up from one box with 5" woofers to another box with 5" woofers.

Things can get a little better in the mids and highs. Incremental improvements

But physics ultimately asserts itself and there are limits to what can be done when all the bass has to go through a little driver.

Objectively, by measuring distortion in bass and mid-octaves, it's quite likely that high-passing the A5+ (thus also reducing mid distortion) and adding a subwoofer will lead to a deeper F3 with less distortion at higher SPLs than moving to another 5" box made by *anyone*, ELAC or otherwise.

Adding more bandwidth, reducing distortion, and improving SPL headroom is what I consider *substantantial*.

 

[TC!!]

And my opinion, having owned gobs of two way speakers over the years, and using 2-way 5 inch nearfield monitors in my mixing studio, is that there are diminishing returns when trading up from one box with 5" woofers to another box with 5" woofers.

Things can get a little better in the mids and highs. Incremental improvements

But physics ultimately asserts itself and there are limits to what can be done when all the bass has to go through a little driver.

Objectively, by measuring distortion in bass and mid-octaves, it's quite likely that high-passing the A5+ (thus also reducing mid distortion) and adding a subwoofer will lead to a deeper F3 with less distortion at higher SPLs than moving to another 5" box made by *anyone*, ELAC or otherwise.

Adding more bandwidth, reducing distortion, and improving SPL headroom is what I consider *substantantial*.

Have you ever heard the Elacs?

 

[watchnerd]

Have you ever heard the Elacs?

Have you heard my Dynaudios?

See where this goes....?

Neither response is particularly relevant with regard to the limitations of 5" woofers in a box, be they 2-way or 3-way, when compared to the same + subwoofer or a bigger box with a bigger woofer.

It's just basic science.

 

[TC!!]

Have you heard my Dynaudios?

See where this goes....?

Neither response is particularly relevant with regard to the limitations of 5" woofers in a box, be they 2-way or 3-way, when compared to the same + subwoofer or a bigger box with a bigger woofer.

It's just basic science.

My point with you listening to the Elacs is you said you had experience of 2-way boxes with 5" woofers. I wanted to know if you'd heard this 3-way design rather than just going off theoretical limitations. You decided to tell OP it wasn't a worth while upgrade based on no experience of listening to the speakers.

What if OP is limited for space, doesn't have room for a separate subwoofer or speakers with larger woofers or even a wife that doesn't want huge speakers in their living room? You can throw audio theory around as much as you like but sometimes you have to work with real life limitations.

The idea that I can't recommend a pair of speakers unless I know the Fs or Xmax is ridiculous.

 

[watchnerd]

My point with you listening to the Elacs is you said you had experience of 2-way boxes with 5" woofers. I wanted to know if you'd heard this 3-way design rather than just going off theoretical limitations. You decided to tell OP it wasn't a worth while upgrade based on no experience of listening to the speakers.

I've heard other Elac small driver 3-ways, as well as the KEF variants of the same idea. It's a clever set of compromises, and Jones is a good speaker designer, but, like all designs, it involves trade-offs.

You're free to recommend whatever you want, of course.

But....

If one has $2,000 to put into getting better performance than the Audience 5, buying another, but more expensive 5" monitor (from anybody) wouldn't be the best ROI by the criteria of:

--Lowering distortion in the mids and bass
--Increasing dynamic headroom

Now, if the use case is so constrained by space and placement that one has to stick with 5" monitors, and can't add a sub, then a better 5" monitor might be the only option...of which ELAC is one amongst many choices.

What if OP is limited for space, doesn't have room for a separate subwoofer or speakers with larger woofers or even a wife that doesn't want huge speakers in their living room?.

Let's ask him / her:

Hey @NoobMD is adding a sub to your existing speakers an option?

The idea that I can't recommend a pair of speakers unless I know the Fs or Xmax is ridiculous.

On this site, we try to go by data driven approaches, or at least logical decision trees, rather than just naked anecdotal and personal assertions, as much as possible. It doesn't always happen, but it's one of the things that differentiates ASR from other places.

In that context.....knowing Fs or Xmax is *data* and it is useful to know.

It's also important for people to understand that 5" woofers typically fall short in both of those areas.

 

[TC!!]

If one has $2,000 to put into getting better performance than the Audience 5, buying another, but more expensive 5" monitor (from anybody) wouldn't be the best ROI by the criteria of:

--Lowering distortion in the mids and bass
--Increasing dynamic headroom

Those are your criteria, you've turned this into a technical pissing contest to show you know more about speakers when OP just wanted speakers that sound better.

Now, if the use case is so constrained by space and placement that one has to stick with 5" monitors, and can't add a sub, then a better 5" monitor might be the only option...of which ELAC is one amongst many choices.



Let's ask him / her:

Hey @NoobMD is adding a sub to your existing speakers an option?

Don't hold your breath, he's not been seen for a month.

On this site, we try to go by data driven approaches, or at least logical decision trees, rather than just naked anecdotal and personal assertions, as much as possible. It doesn't always happen, but it's one of the things that differentiates ASR from other places.

In that context.....knowing Fs or Xmax is *data* and it is useful to know.

It's also important for people to understand that 5" woofers typically fall short in both of those areas.

Holy shit you're being serious? At the start of all this you didn't even know the speakers he was talking about were a 3 way design. Instead of just holding your hands up and admitting you don't know anything about the speakers you've decided to turn this into a technical argument about Xmax and Fs hoping you could just blind me with science, basic science.

 

[watchnerd]

Holy shit you're being serious? At the start of all this you didn't even know the speakers he was talking about were a 3 way design. Instead of just holding your hands up and admitting you don't know anything about the speakers you've decided to turn this into a technical argument about Xmax and Fs hoping you could just blind me with science, basic science.

The technical argument is grounded in the general limitations of 5" woofers in small boxes.

Regardless of whether they're 1-way, 2-way, or 3-way systems.