• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Narrow baffles and better stereo imaging?

Blake Klondike

Senior Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Messages
442
Likes
311
I auditioned a pair of Totem Arros today, playing "Nobody Home" from The Wall-- The stereo panning on the car sound effects, ambient TV noise/hollering, slap echo on the vocal, etc. was unbelievable. The fellow at the shop attributed it the the extremely narrow baffles on the tweeters. Anybody else have similar experience with narrow baffles and spatial imaging like that? It just knocked me out. On the lookout now for other speaker options that might have the same strengths.
 

napilopez

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 17, 2018
Messages
2,146
Likes
8,704
Location
NYC
I auditioned a pair of Totem Arros today, playing "Nobody Home" from The Wall-- The stereo panning on the car sound effects, ambient TV noise/hollering, slap echo on the vocal, etc. was unbelievable. The fellow at the shop attributed it the the extremely narrow baffles on the tweeters. Anybody else have similar experience with narrow baffles and spatial imaging like that? It just knocked me out. On the lookout now for other speaker options that might have the same strengths.

I've heard people say that narrow baffles are better for imaging, but I haven't seen solid proof of this. Seems to be more of a myth that's gone around for a while. Ultimately, I'm pretty sure it's a combination of factors that go beyond the simple choice of narrow or wide baffle.

On a related note used to think I preferred the soundstage from small speakers because they visually disappeared and helped make the illusion more convincing, but then I heard the suprr-chunky JBL L100 Classic and they leapfrogged everything else I'd heard in my apartment in terms of soundstage. I find they image so well and that the soundstage expands past the visual boundary of the speakers that there have been multiple times when I've double check I wasn't accidentally upmixing the sound to my surround speakers.

So no, I don't think there's a correlation between baffle size and imaging... totem probably just made a speaker that happens to image well =]
 

oivavoi

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
1,721
Likes
1,937
Location
Oslo, Norway
I auditioned a pair of Totem Arros today, playing "Nobody Home" from The Wall-- The stereo panning on the car sound effects, ambient TV noise/hollering, slap echo on the vocal, etc. was unbelievable. The fellow at the shop attributed it the the extremely narrow baffles on the tweeters. Anybody else have similar experience with narrow baffles and spatial imaging like that? It just knocked me out. On the lookout now for other speaker options that might have the same strengths.

Bumping this. This is my subjective experience as well. There are some exceptions to the rule, like the exceptional Grimm LS1, but they consciously designed the baffle to avoid diffraction etc. But overall, I find that narrow baffle speakers - and some pyramid speakers, where the baffle width confirms tightly to the size of the woofers - image better and disappear more easily than wide baffle speakers.
 

Cosmik

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 24, 2016
Messages
3,075
Likes
2,180
Location
UK
You'll find it mentioned in the Grimm LS1 paper
...wide baffles have a reputation of less than stellar imaging. This is because diffraction artefacts become audible as distinct reflections whereas on narrow baffles they are perceived only as colouration. The solution is simple enough: generously round off the edges.
In summary: narrow baffles are easy to build and position but they give you 'small speaker sound' due to where the baffle step frequency is - and that can't be corrected or equalised away. Wider baffles sound inherently better, but diffraction effects *may* affect the imaging. The Grimm people solve that problem.

And cardioid response speakers are another attempt to get wider baffle sound from a small box.

Another article on the same issues.
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,463
Location
Australia
I would like to be convinced that narrow baffle speakers are more than a décor compromise after years of reading of the importance of baffle width, going as far back as the work of Briggs(Wharfedale).
 

ahofer

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
5,021
Likes
9,050
Location
New York City
From Peter Comeau, Wharfedale, on a Trade-off:

Th[e] larger ported box, with its subsequent increased baffle size, helps solve a major problem in modern speakers, namely, the baffle step.

I grew up with large speakers with wide baffles, but, as speakers reduced in size over the years I noticed that something was missing from the sound and, when I stuck my head firmly into speaker design, I began to understand the acoustic problems caused by the baffle step.

Put simply, as the baffle size decreases, the point at which the acoustic radiation changes from hemispherical to spherical goes up in frequency. It also becomes sharper and narrower in bandwidth as the sides of the cabinet, and the walls and floor of the room, are further removed from the equation. So, this 6dB step in the power response becomes acoustically more obvious.

I believe that a thin speaker always sounds thinner throughout the midrange when directly compared to a speaker with more generous baffle width. Of course, as designers of modern, slim speakers, we compromise by adjusting for the baffle step in the crossover, but in doing so, we also compromise sensitivity. What starts out as a 90dB at 1W drive-unit often ends up as an 85dB system once we have adjusted for the power loss due to the baffle step.
 

oivavoi

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
1,721
Likes
1,937
Location
Oslo, Norway
You'll find it mentioned in the Grimm LS1 paper

In summary: narrow baffles are easy to build and position but they give you 'small speaker sound' due to where the baffle step frequency is - and that can't be corrected or equalised away. Wider baffles sound inherently better, but diffraction effects *may* affect the imaging. The Grimm people solve that problem.

And cardioid response speakers are another attempt to get wider baffle sound from a small box.

Another article on the same issues.

Yap, the Grimm speakers are very well thought-out! My own view is that the pyramid shape is probably ideal for front-firing box speakers. It makes intuitive sense to me that the baffle around a tweeter should be narrow and the baffle around a bass driver should be wide. It seems to me like any driver will be most happy if it can just play into the air, without baffle things or waveguides etc getting in the way. Kef figured it out ages ago with the Model 105, and then it all went backwards from there.
 

oivavoi

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
1,721
Likes
1,937
Location
Oslo, Norway

Cosmik

Major Contributor
Joined
Apr 24, 2016
Messages
3,075
Likes
2,180
Location
UK
From Peter Comeau, Wharfedale, on a Trade-off:
His final couple of sentences are revealing. He thinks he is correcting for the baffle step in the crossover and the only cost is sensitivity. If you read the two links I posted above, you will see that that is wrong. You can't correct for a narrow baffle; you can merely change the balance of frequency responses of direct and delayed (reflected) sound. You have to modify the frequency response of the direct sound away from flat, so the 'improvement' is ambiguous.

If you believe that a human doesn't separate direct from reflected sound then his correction is unambigous and the in-room FFT will prove it. If you believe that a human distinguishes between direct and ambient, you realise that it isn't a correction. Knowing this is the difference between naive 'objective' sound and the higher echelons of audio!
 
Last edited:

vavan

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2019
Messages
341
Likes
212
Location
Kazan, Russia
some speakers (such as say audio physic) combine slim profile with narrow baffles on their sides
 

oivavoi

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 12, 2017
Messages
1,721
Likes
1,937
Location
Oslo, Norway
You can't correct for a narrow baffle; you can merely change the balance of frequency responses of direct and delayed (reflected) sound. You have to modify the frequency response of the direct sound away from flat, so the 'improvement' is ambiguous.

Indeed, I often find speakers with baffle step correction to sound unnatural and bloated, particularly if I listen in the near-field.
 

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,463
Location
Australia
Conventional Test Baffle Size

Graphic: http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/IEC baffle.jpg

8 inch driver: IEC_Baffl_SPL.PNG
 
Last edited:

JanRSmit

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2019
Messages
54
Likes
21
I auditioned a pair of Totem Arros today, playing "Nobody Home" from The Wall-- The stereo panning on the car sound effects, ambient TV noise/hollering, slap echo on the vocal, etc. was unbelievable. The fellow at the shop attributed it the the extremely narrow baffles on the tweeters. Anybody else have similar experience with narrow baffles and spatial imaging like that? It just knocked me out. On the lookout now for other speaker options that might have the same strengths.
Narrow baffles effect on the radiated sound is more pronounced. Of heester importante are egdes, rounding helps a lot. Also non parallel verical edges does help. The scattering of Sharp edges can be quite disturbing when listening not in the Ideal spot.
Cardiod type of horizontale radiation does help a lot.
Unfortunately alle these measures are adding to the coat, and also impact the side or appearance.
 

MattHooper

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
7,273
Likes
12,175
I've long noticed that the audiophile article-of-faith seemed to be true: that very narrow baffle speakers tend to "disappear" and soundstage effortlessly. I've had numerous very narrow profile speakers that really did that trick, and generally that seems to be the case "in the wild" when I encounter narrow baffle speakers.

Though I was pleasantly surprised by some wider baffle designs in that regard - the Harbeth and Devore O speakers, wide baffled - both imaged and "disappeared" to a surprising degree, though not quite up to the best narrow-baffle designs. But those speakers in turn gave a bigger sound - instrument size and weight seemed more substantial.

The best disappearing/imaging/soundstaging I beieve I've ever heard came from my departed Thiel 3.7 speakers, which I don't know if they would fall totally in to the narrow-baffle category. They were a big speaker, and a little in between narrow and wider. But, man, those things threw a massive, airy soundstage for "miles" with incredibly precise, dense imaging, and also with a "big speaker" sound to the instrument size.
 

Powerbench

Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2022
Messages
79
Likes
69
I auditioned a pair of Totem Arros today, playing "Nobody Home" from The Wall-- The stereo panning on the car sound effects, ambient TV noise/hollering, slap echo on the vocal, etc. was unbelievable. The fellow at the shop attributed it the the extremely narrow baffles on the tweeters. Anybody else have similar experience with narrow baffles and spatial imaging like that? It just knocked me out. On the lookout now for other speaker options that might have the same strengths.
Over the last 25 years or so after trying different numerous brands in medium sized rooms I have returned to the Arros. Some people love them.
 

youngho

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2019
Messages
486
Likes
799
I didn't see this thread linked already, but I believe that it's relevant to what's being discussed here, especially with respect to the Audio Physic speakers, which I believe were some of the ones that kicked off the fashion: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/loudspeaker-enclosures-are-waveguides.363630/. What I found particularly interesting was the discussion regarding the effects of diffraction. When it comes to the Salon 2, I believe that this may contribute to the higher correlation between the on-axis and listening window responses compared with, say, the F328Be, where this is more deviation. I also wonder whether this explains the reported higher performance of the Salon 2 in Revel's own listening panels in the past, but I'm getting off topic. From what I can tell, properly designed narrower speakers (Kef and Genelec, for example) tend to have a more steadily rising directivity compared with wider ones (Harman designs, D&D 8C), which tend to have more of a stair step directivity. My relatively uninformed theory is that the former may contribute to a perception of clarity and imaging, at the expense of timbre for acoustic instruments and non-close-mic'd human voices. This may be reflected @Kal Rubinson's remarks "Also, in Narrow mode, the stereo image snapped into a new level of precise stability. In Narrow mode, the BeoLabs delivered what I heard as increased resolution, detail, and tonal honesty, unsullied by the interference of short-latency reflections" in his review of the BeoLab 90s (https://www.stereophile.com/content/bang-olufsen-beolab-90-loudspeaker-page-2), but it's almost impossible (I didn't use the word "virtually" because I think that virtual auralization experiments might be the ideal way to do this) to set up a good controlled experiment to test this, for various reasons (see in the Stereophile measurements how changing the directivity might also change the on-axis response, if I'm interpreting correctly). I have further speculations but will spare you at this time.
 

ahofer

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Messages
5,021
Likes
9,050
Location
New York City
at the expense of timbre for acoustic instruments and non-close-mic'd human voices.
Genuinely curious (given the reputation for natural sounding timbre of some more boxy speakers). What specfically makes the timbre..better?
 

youngho

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2019
Messages
486
Likes
799
Genuinely curious (given the reputation for natural sounding timbre of some more boxy speakers). What specfically makes the timbre..better?
Please understand that I'm trying to extrapolate from the little that I know, so there may certainly be a number of inaccuracies or mischaracterizations, which I would certainly appreciate having corrected.

In discussing timbre here, I'm referring to the subjective "naturalness" of how non-closely-mic'd vocals and instruments sound when reproduced through loudspeakers. We can compare our memory, faulty though it may be, of actual listening experiences at concerts or recitals. Since we rarely put our ears where the microphones would be when dealing with closely mic'd vocals, many of us are unable to compare the experience of listening to a actual performing singer from fewer than a few feet away, and it may be more difficult for us to compare how well these are reproduced. Musical instruments can sound quite different to the performer and an audience member, so closely mic'd instrumental recordings may better replicate what a performer might hear themselves, but I think that's a different topic of discussion.

The frequency range of the human voice might be crudely approximated as 100-1000 Hz. The violin is a little higher, with much of the range being ~200-3.5 kHz. Perhaps there is a relatively critical range from a few hundred to a few thousand hertz where the ear is relatively sensitive in general, or more specifically to changes in directivity.

If you look at the Kef LS50 Meta (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-ls50-meta-review-speaker.25574/), Kef R3 (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-r3-speaker-review.12021/), or Genelec 8361A (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/genelec-8361a-review-powered-monitor.28039/), these all have steadily rising Sound Power DI from 100 to 1000 Hz, although they're nicely smooth (what I think of as "controlled" directivity). As you'd expect, the sound power increasingly diverges from the on-axis response (compare the relative difference at, say, 200-300 Hz with 800-1000 Hz).

Compare that with the JBL LRS6332 (https://jblpro.com/en-US/site_elements/lsr6332-spec-sheet) or perhaps even the Revel F328Be (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-f328be-speaker-review.17443/), where there is less relative divergence between the on-axis and power responses in this range, and the SP DI is relatively flatter, implying relatively more "constant" directivity. I wasn't able to think of other wider baffle speakers with Spin-o-rama measurements. The JBL M2 (https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jbl_m2/) isn't a great example in many ways, since it's crossed over so low, hence the step in directivity approaching the 800 Hz crossover. The D&D (8C https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/) also has the rise in SP DI at the top end of this range as one approaches the crossover frequency, it does extends further down at the bottom of this range. If you look at https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...cal-music-listening.33212/page-2#post-1162572, the reverberation times for the two concert halls from 125-1000 Hz and the red line in figure 3 of the Lokki paper are all reasonably flat in this frequency range.

These speakers have a second range from 1-2 kHz up to about 6-8 kHz where the SP DI is relatively flatter again, then DI rises again, and SP falls off above that frequency range. Many classic concert halls have relatively little response above 6-8 kHz or so (again: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...cal-music-listening.33212/page-2#post-1162572).

The difference between smoothly rising and relatively flatter directivities may not be significant in a relatively anechoic room, but in a more reflective listening environment, the sound power might be expected to play an increasingly important role. @Floyd Toole has commented multiple times on the importance of preserving the relative spectral timbre of reflections (I hope I'm not misquoting), hence Harman's apparent embrace of wider-radiating conventional speakers for consumer use. Harman and Klippel take some reasonable shortcuts with things like their estimated in-room response curve, but consider the Floor Bounce curve in Klippel's measurements--floor bounce is dependent on multiple factors, specifically height of transducer and listener and relative distance between (https://mehlau.net/audio/floorbounce/ and http://dtmblabber.blogspot.com/2010/12/little-more-into-boundary-conditions.html). Toole, in his books and articles, has written things like "“The shape of the room curve is clearly signaled in the shapes of both the “early-reflections” curve and the inverted DI." Maybe the flatter room curve in the critical range may sound more "natural" in terms of timbre to certain listeners.

To sum up, perhaps it's because wider baffle speakers push up the frequency at which sound power rolls off to the upper end of the "critical range" that they may sound more natural in more reflective listening rooms to some listeners of classical music, and perhaps this derives from the relative frequency ranges of these instruments, as well as the relative frequency responses of the venues in which concert goers are accustomed to hear them.

Hope that makes sense. I wrote rather more than I originally intended, but that's pretty much all that I know.

Young-Ho
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom