Nakamichi Dragon "Soundbar" - Feedback/help needed

[ADT256]

Hello ASR,

I'm really excited to post on this forum. I've been a big fan of Amir's work and all the knowledge this forum has shared with the world. My audio journey started with a $50 DAC and a $50 amp, and over time, I've accumulated a mountain of equipment—all while valuing the information I’ve gathered here.

Backstory: Like many uninformed audiophiles, I wanted a solution for my family room that wouldn’t be bulky and would be wireless. I decided to buy what was advertised as “Redefining the audio experience,” since my wife only “approved” a soundbar for this room. I thought I was clever by purchasing a large soundbar with surround sound and two subs as a workaround. At first, the experience was okay—nothing remarkable, but the sound was loud enough, and the AMT tweeters made voices sound crisp. Coming from just using the TV speakers in this room, anything was an upgrade.

However, over time, I started noticing issues with the sound, particularly in the mids and bass—they sounded off. Worse, whenever there was a heavy sub-bass effect in a movie, the subwoofers would bottom out, making a sound like a huge stone dropping in water. I’ve never had that issue with any of my other subs. Then, Andrew Robinson released his review, where he did a basic sound analysis and found that the subs were nowhere near the advertised 20Hz, and there was a significant gap below 300Hz.

Despite these findings, Nakamichi initially denied these issues to their customers. However, a week after that review (just last week), they released a new subwoofer that supposedly hits 19Hz as an optional upgrade—priced at $1,500 per subwoofer, with their recommendation being to buy at least two. That was the moment I decided I wouldn’t give them any more of my money and began exploring DIY options to improve the subs.

My first attempt was to see if I could simply replace the drivers. When I opened the unit, I discovered that the two drivers in the subwoofer (dual) are only 100W each, despite the subs being marketed as 500W per subwoofer. I understand the concept of peak power, but peak watts wouldn’t be much higher than RMS; at most, two 100W subwoofers would peak around 300-400W together. I shared this issue in a Nakamichi group, but some members immediately responded, claiming Nakamichi has a “magical” way to calculate wattage, which they can't reveal because it’s a secret—yet we're supposed to trust the 500W claim.

For more details, please see my post on Reddit:

Reddit Post

Reason for this post:
I’m looking for feedback to see if I’m crazy for thinking this company is being shady and deceptive. There’s no way this soundbar kit has 3,000 watts, even at peak, or that the subwoofers “easily” hit 20Hz as advertised (World away from it).

I’m also open to facilitating someone to do proper measurements, or if anyone can confirm that the math just doesn’t add up. In my opinion, we need to lay out the facts and make this information widely available.

 

[sergeauckland]

Sad to see what's happened to the Nakamichi name. From their superb cassette machines and excellent Stasis amplifiers, to the dross that carries their name now.

Etsuro Nakamichi would be disgusted.

Sadly it happens all to often when a brand name is sold to someone with no feeling for the history or culture behind the name. It's just an asset to be exploited.

S

 

[ADT256]

Sad to see what's happened to the Nakamichi name. From their superb cassette machines and excellent Stasis amplifiers, to the dross that carries their name now.

Etsuro Nakamichi would be disgusted.

Sadly it happens all to often when a brand name is sold to someone with no feeling for the history or culture behind the name. It's just an asset to be exploited.

S

It is indeed very sad ...

 

[kemmler3D]

Speaking from experience in the mainstream-consumer end of the industry, it is almost universal to lie about wattage for integrated speakers.

You won't see pro monitor companies doing it, but when it comes to bluetooth and cheap soundbar stuff, the wattage numbers are basically always misleading if not complete lies. Wattage is used as a vague relative measure of how loud something is subjectively. So "500w" is about twice as loud as "50w", maybe, who knows?

Do they even say what the 500 watts refers to?

 

[Jimbob54]

I've de-sensationlised the title somewhat.

 

[ADT256]

Speaking from experience in the mainstream-consumer end of the industry, it is almost universal to lie about wattage for integrated speakers.

You won't see pro monitor companies doing it, but when it comes to bluetooth and cheap soundbar stuff, the wattage numbers are basically always misleading if not complete lies. Wattage is used as a vague relative measure of how loud something is subjectively. So "500w" is about twice as loud as "50w", maybe, who knows?

Do they even say what the 500 watts refers to?

Very interesting so all the mention of the wattage on their marketing is usually referred as peak which in my understanding that's the peak wattage of the speakers. I agree with the premise that usually cheap speaker kit just put whatever to sell the product but in this case there's 2 aspect the frequency range who was described as 20hz to 40khz which is very precise and the marketing saying the subwoofer was hitting those 20hz easily and the peak wattage of the subwoofer.

This is a 3200-3500$USD soundbar kit, which used the name Nakamichi as a way to act like a premium brand so that people believe those numbers. It's competitor in this price range (Which don't really exist) are Sennheiser, Sony and Sonos Arc+surround. Those were tested and pretty much meet at least the basic specs that are advertised.

 

[kemmler3D]

the mention of the wattage on their marketing is usually referred as peak which in my understanding that's the peak wattage of the speakers.

Unless they actually say, it could be the peak (xmech) power handling of the speakers, the amplifier, or even the power supply.

but in this case there's 2 aspect the frequency range who was described as 20hz to 40khz which is very precise

Actually not precise at all, without more information. How many decibels down did they specify at 20hz? It could be -20dB unless they say otherwise.

This is a 3200-3500$USD soundbar kit, which used the name Nakamichi as a way to act like a premium brand so that people believe those numbers. It's competitor in this price range (Which don't really exist) are Sennheiser, Sony and Sonos Arc+surround.

Well, the brand was sold in the 90s and it went bankrupt in 2002. I guess the reputation has lingered on for quite a while.

That's really expensive for a soundbar kit, though. You can get subwoofers that really hit their specs (e.g. 2x SVS SB1000 pro) plus a few surrounds for that kind of money.

 

[ADT256]

Unless they actually say, it could be the peak (xmech) power handling of the speakers, the amplifier, or even the power supply.


Actually not precise at all, without more information. How many decibels down did they specify at 20hz? It could be -20dB unless they say otherwise.


Well, the brand was sold in the 90s and it went bankrupt in 2002. I guess the reputation has lingered on for quite a while.

That's really expensive for a soundbar kit, though. You can get subwoofers that really hit their specs (e.g. 2x SVS SB1000 pro) plus a few surrounds for that kind of money.

Just fyi :

 

[voodooless]

I shared this issue in a Nakamichi group, but some members immediately responded, claiming Nakamichi has a “magical” way to calculate wattage, which they can't reveal because it’s a secret—yet we're supposed to trust the 500W claim

Well, they’ve been calling it PMPO for decades

Seriously though, even at 100W per woofer, and having 4 of them, you should not bottom them out in a normal room. Even at bass frequencies, crest factor is high enough to probably cope with a 500W amp thermally. So my guess would be that excursion is the issue here. From the pictures they don’t look super long throw…

So possibly, replacing them with different driver would bring benefits. There are some caveats though:
- you’ll lose warranty on the subs
- high excursion driver might be too deep to actually fit. Possibly you could add a ring to widen the space, or find special lower profile woofers. The latter will be more expensive, and usually distortion suffers
- the drivers will need to fit for the current tuning and enclosure volume
- without changing the sub’s tuning, it won’t go lower, and a longer port will probably need a bigger enclosure.
- possibly the amps are equipped with a fixed EQ, limiter and or high-pass, limiting what you can do with other woofers.

Note that commercial subs can be had for good prices that are really hard to DIY against.

 

[ADT256]

Well, they’ve been calling it PMPO for decades

Seriously though, even at 100W per woofer, and having 4 of them, you should not bottom them out in a normal room. Even at bass frequencies, crest factor is high enough to probably cope with a 500W amp thermally. So my guess would be that excision is the issue here. From the pictures they don’t look super long throw…

So possibly, replacing them with different driver would bring benefits. There are some caveats though:
- you’ll lose warranty on the subs
- high excursion driver might be too deep to actually fit. Possibly you could add a ring to widen the space, or find special lower profile woofers. The latter will be more expensive, and usually distortion suffers
- the drivers will need to fit for the current tuning and enclosure volume
- without changing the sub’s tuning, it won’t go lower, and a longer port will probably need a bigger enclosure.

Note that commercial subs can be had for good prices that are really hard to DIY against.

Yes my current plan is on the reddit page but basically is just to convert the electronic in the current sub into a transmitter and just use a 3rd party active sub like an SVS.

 

[kemmler3D]

Just fyi :
View attachment 387569

"output power" doesn't have a specific technical definition that I am aware of without more detail.

"PMPO" is basically adding up all the peak values you can find in a way that doesn't reflect reality - this is probably that.

 

[voodooless]

Yes my current plan is on the reddit page but basically is just to convert the electronic in the current sub into a transmitter and just use a 3rd party active sub like an SVS.

Yeah, as I just added to the original post, it might be the case that the sub amps already has some processing, like EQ, limiter or high-pass. Would be good to verify this.

As it happens, I also have a only a soundbar, “just”
The 500W Ambeo Max It can go insanely loud! I only have one 10” DIY sub powered by about 250W. It can basically bring down the house.

 

[ADT256]

Yeah, as I just added to the original post, it might be the case that the sub amps already has some processing, like EQ, limiter or high-pass. Would be good to verify this.

As it happens, I also have a only a soundbar, “just”
The 500W Ambeo Max It can go insanely loud! I only have one 10” DIY sub powered by about 250W. It can basically bring down the house.

Yeah I'll check that, hopefully it will work fine. Those subs really have something wrong... They hit hard at 40hz but that's about it and they sound terrible in term of quality of bass ... Super muddy.

 

[ADT256]

"output power" doesn't have a specific technical definition that I am aware of without more detail.

"PMPO" is basically adding up all the peak values you can find in a way that doesn't reflect reality - this is probably that.

Yeah they put that but even peak, which peak are they taking ? The amplifier in the subwoofer isn't 500w and the speakers arent ? So they just make it up ? Or like you said they put "Perceived watts" base on the loudness of the subwoofer (Facepalm).

 

[voodooless]

Doesn’t it say 125 dB max for the 2x dual 8” subs in that picture? That should really be plenty if true..

 

[kemmler3D]

Doesn’t it say 125 dB max for the 2x dual 8” subs in that picture? That should really be plenty if true..

In this case you still have to wonder where they got the number, though. 125dB max might be at 175hz in-room at xmech.

 

[ADT256]

Doesn’t it say 125 dB max for the 2x dual 8” subs in that picture? That should really be plenty if true.

The subwoofer doesn't get to 125db in a normal usage trust me LOL ... The rest of the system likely does tho ... tho it really sound like pure thin distortion at this point.

 

[ADT256]

Also just found on their website something that I didn't saw which basically do show that their subwoofer have a terrible frequency response ... tho even that measurement is false because really the subwoofer doesn't work at all at 25hz to 20hz ...

 

[voodooless]

Also just found on their website something that I didn't saw which basically do show that their subwoofer have a terrible frequency response ... tho even that measurement is false because really the subwoofer doesn't work at all at 25hz to 20hz ...

View attachment 387576

This is pure nonsense.. 25% volume can mean anything…

 

[ADT256]

This is pure nonsense.. 25% volume can mean anything…

LOLL thanks for this comment... I started laughing so hard ...