NAD M66 - finally someone makes a decent 2-channel preamp!

[pogo]

This will not be correct. My M33 also outputs the cover arts via eARC

 

[Jim Creek]

$5500? Ridiculous!

 

[pogo]

 

[MingChops]

$5500? Ridiculous!

It's costly yes, but I don't think ridiculous is fair, not when you break it down as there's a lot of distinct components this wraps in to one, it'd cost a fair bit to 'DIY' it with separate components of suitable calibre. Also until it's got competition, which it has none given no other 2ch integrated products like this with DLBC/ART - it's impossible to say categorically one way or the other how it's value stacks up. The closest thing to it will be the Anthem STR Pre at £4000-£4600 depending on retailer, so it does appear to be the going rate for this type of device.

Anyway from a componentry point of view it essentially packs:

• A quality streamer with leading software, which BluOS is - it's a fully built custom bit of software with the associated development and support costs to go with.
  So a Node for £550 has to be included here as it's the minimum entry point to BluOS. Yes there are cheaper streamers but not with BluOS.
• DAC(s), and high performance too (no doubt it will/should be!), using 9038Pro chip, potentially multiple of them too given this will be DLBC and is hardware balanced for 6 channels (4x sub, L + R) of out put. What cost does this get assigned noting a 2ch only D90SE is £800, so given 6ch's, well 3x D90SE's could be argued!! But we'll be sensible and say £1000 here seems fairer to assign as a cost.
• ADC, 9822Pro based circuit, like the DAC we'll need measurements but benefit of the doubt again to being high performance - I don't know what a good ADC costs, few hundred? £300?
• DSP capabilities and circuitry, you'd need a miniDSP Flex as an equiv here in cost, £600
• Dirac licensing for DLBC and later ART. I'm sure the DLBC licensing must absorb at least £500 here, given that's what you'd typically pay for other products to enable multi sub DLBC.
• Analogue pre amp with ladder etc, so similar to a Freya S or Kara, £700
• Touch screen and case work - hard to say but it's a premium chassis and setup here £500 ish?
• Cables, not much granted but still be £50 to get everything hooked up.

I know that's a somewhat crude way of breaking it down, and DIY would yield great savings, but given all the above amounts to £4200 I actually don't think £4500 is ridiculous at all, and as said is inline with the only other similar device on the market in the Anthem. Especially given the dealer and distribution networks need their mark-ups on top too!

Fully diy'ing would make some of those redundant as alluded to, and something like a miniDSP Flex 8 could roll the DAC, DSP and pre amp costs up, but then you're using digital volume control, you won't have DLBC/ART, you will have multiple boxes, none of which a lovely case and big display. And it'd still be a a couple of grand.... so again £4500 doesn't seam ridiculous.

I for one anyway am very keen to see how this measures, and hope some legend will get a box to Amir for testing. If it tests well, I'm very very tempted, and as I hopefully have gone some way to articulating, I think it's fair value for premium one-box DLBC based solution. No one will be under any illusion they're not paying a premium for some luxury here, but not grossly IMO.

 

[pogo]

miniDSP does not support DL at 192kHz. M33/M66 does it

 

[Jim Creek]

It's costly yes, but I don't think ridiculous is fair, not when you break it down as there's a lot of distinct components this wraps in to one, it'd cost a fair bit to 'DIY' it with separate components of suitable calibre. Also until it's got competition, which it has none given no other 2ch integrated products like this with DLBC/ART - it's impossible to say categorically one way or the other how it's value stacks up. The closest thing to it will be the Anthem STR Pre at £4000-£4600 depending on retailer, so it does appear to be the going rate for this type of device.

Anyway from a componentry point of view it essentially packs:

• A quality streamer with leading software, which BluOS is - it's a fully built custom bit of software with the associated development and support costs to go with.
  So a Node for £550 has to be included here as it's the minimum entry point to BluOS. Yes there are cheaper streamers but not with BluOS.
• DAC(s), and high performance too (no doubt it will/should be!), using 9038Pro chip, potentially multiple of them too given this will be DLBC and is hardware balanced for 6 channels (4x sub, L + R) of out put. What cost does this get assigned noting a 2ch only D90SE is £800, so given 6ch's, well 3x D90SE's could be argued!! But we'll be sensible and say £1000 here seems fairer to assign as a cost.
• ADC, 9822Pro based circuit, like the DAC we'll need measurements but benefit of the doubt again to being high performance - I don't know what a good ADC costs, few hundred? £300?
• DSP capabilities and circuitry, you'd need a miniDSP Flex as an equiv here in cost, £600
• Dirac licensing for DLBC and later ART. I'm sure the DLBC licensing must absorb at least £500 here, given that's what you'd typically pay for other products to enable multi sub DLBC.
• Analogue pre amp with ladder etc, so similar to a Freya S or Kara, £700
• Touch screen and case work - hard to say but it's a premium chassis and setup here £500 ish?
• Cables, not much granted but still be £50 to get everything hooked up.

I know that's a somewhat crude way of breaking it down, and DIY would yield great savings, but given all the above amounts to £4200 I actually don't think £4500 is ridiculous at all, and as said is inline with the only other similar device on the market in the Anthem. Especially given the dealer and distribution networks need their mark-ups on top too!

Fully diy'ing would make some of those redundant as alluded to, and something like a miniDSP Flex 8 could roll the DAC, DSP and pre amp costs up, but then you're using digital volume control, you won't have DLBC/ART, you will have multiple boxes, none of which a lovely case and big display. And it'd still be a a couple of grand.... so again £4500 doesn't seam ridiculous.

I for one anyway am very keen to see how this measures, and hope some legend will get a box to Amir for testing. If it tests well, I'm very very tempted, and as I hopefully have gone some way to articulating, I think it's fair value for premium one-box DLBC based solution. No one will be under any illusion they're not paying a premium for some luxury here, but not grossly IMO.

Putting it all into perspective, for $5500 a family could buy a high quality refrigerator, range, washer, dryer with enough left over to buy a Raspberry Pi and a free download of Volumio or Rune and many of months of pizza deliveries.

Denon is making obscene profits on that piece of electronics.

 

[MingChops]

Putting it all into perspective, for $5500 a family could buy a high quality refrigerator, range, washer, dryer with enough left over to buy a Raspberry Pi and a free download of Volumio or Rune and many of months of pizza deliveries.

Denon is making obscene profits on that piece of electronics.

That has absolutely no relevance at all though, it doesn't even come remotely close to sharing the feature set which was the whole point of my post to say look actually breaking it down it's not so ridiculous as it first appears.

Really by your same notion of an argument, everyone should drive for example the most basic of car only... all these idiots buying Lambo's when they could have just bought a Ford and used the rest for a [insert family practical item and food here]! - That argument ironically, is the only ridiculous part of this thread now.

 

[Jim Creek]

That has absolutely no relevance at all though, it doesn't even come remotely close to sharing the feature set which was the whole point of my post to say look actually breaking it down it's not so ridiculous as it first appears.

Really by your same notion of an argument, everyone should drive for example the most basic of car only... all these idiots buying Lambo's when they could have just bought a Ford and used the rest for a [insert family practical item and food here]! - That argument ironically, is the only ridiculous part of this thread now.

I was putting the price of the M66 into perspective. In my previous post I mentioned Denon. I meant NAD, parent company is Lenbrook International.

 

[MingChops]

I was putting the price of the M66 into perspective. In my previous post I mentioned Denon. I meant NAD, parent company is Lenbrook International.

Like I said that's utterly irrelevant though because you could do that with any thing that could be considered superfluous or luxury (cars, hifi, watches, etc). You said it was a ridiculous price but broken down, as I have done, I don't see the price of the M66 is ridiculous at all.
It's certainly expensive as a solo purchase but comparatively compared to functionality not so bad at all - it's far from a forgone conclusion I'll buy one because I'm very much on the fence about spending that much, so I'm not needlessly defending it - but if I decide I won't spend the money it's certainly not because it's a ridiculous price.

A Molo Mola or a DCS DAC, are to me (and I'm sure most) examples of a ridiculous price, this highly versatile first on the market (for a proper 2ch DLBC device) multi component piece - certainly is not.

 

[Jim Creek]

Like I said that's utterly irrelevant though because you could do that with any thing that could be considered superfluous or luxury (cars, hifi, watches, etc). You said it was a ridiculous price but broken down, as I have done, I don't see the price of the M66 is ridiculous at all.
It's certainly expensive as a solo purchase but comparatively compared to functionality not so bad at all - it's far from a forgone conclusion I'll buy one because I'm very much on the fence about spending that much, so I'm not needlessly defending it - but if I decide I won't spend the money it's certainly not because it's a ridiculous price.

A Molo Mola or a DCS DAC, are to me (and I'm sure most) examples of a ridiculous price, this highly versatile first on the market (for a proper 2ch DLBC device) multi component piece - certainly is not.

I understand your point of view.

 

[Davide]

A Motu Ultralite Mk5 with Dirac Live Studio and WiiM Mini does virtually the same thing, with the same performance, for 1/5 the price.

 

[MingChops]

A Motu Ultralite Mk5 with Dirac Live Studio and WiiM Mini does virtually the same thing, with the same performance, for 1/5 the price.

Sounds potentially complicated and given Dirac Studio does that involve a PC - that's a fair cost and unless building something fanless would be additional noise in the environment.
Not looking to split hairs or argue, but would this type of setup be applicable to someone like myself who want's a traditional simple box approach, listening in a lounge, without a PC, and would want DLBC applied to multiple sources (HT bypass being one)?

Also how is the volume attenuation being handled, I've yet to hear a digital implementation that doesn't have obvious compression. Not that I am saying good digital volume isn't out there, simply I'm yet to hear one so have a preference towards analogue, and ladder/relay based system at that given how pot's are just as problematic for other reasons. If it does it digitally in a way similar to say an ADI DAC with gain stages, that'd be no doubt good enough.

 

[Davide]

Sounds potentially complicated and given Dirac Studio does that involve a PC - that's a fair cost and unless building something fanless would be additional noise in the environment.
Not looking to split hairs or argue, but would this type of setup be applicable to someone like myself who want's a traditional simple box approach, listening in a lounge, without a PC, and would want DLBC applied to multiple sources (HT bypass being one)?

Also how is the volume attenuation being handled, I've yet to hear a digital implementation that doesn't have obvious compression. Not that I am saying good digital volume isn't out there, simply I'm yet to hear one so have a preference towards analogue, and ladder/relay based system at that given how pot's are just as problematic for other reasons. If it does it digitally in a way similar to say an ADI DAC with gain stages, that'd be no doubt good enough.

Obviously, if you can afford NAD it is certainly less complicated and more elegant as a solution.
As for the volume, don't worry... a good DAC has sufficient dynamic range.

 

[danielsmi]

The guy in the video says the volume control is analog but the product page says many times that the volume control is digital

For volume adjustment, the M66 employs an ultra-precise resistor-ladder control circuit. Compared to traditional analogue circuits, the M66’s digital volume control markedly reduces thermal and related distortions, maximises dynamic range, and more accurately matches left- and right-channel output across the entire volume range.

M66 - NAD Electronics

The Masters M66 BluOS Streaming DAC-Preamplifier is a revolutionary hi-fi component that combines an audiophile-grade DAC with a high-resolution multi-room music streamer. Featuring Dirac Live Room Correction and Dirac Live Bass Control, its elegant design and vibrant 7" touchscreen exudes...

nadelectronics.com

 

[MingChops]

Obviously, if you can afford NAD it is certainly less complicated and more elegant as a solution.
As for the volume, don't worry... a good DAC has sufficient dynamic range.

Well I'm always interested in saving money, ultimately as with anything it's about weighing up the solutions and their functionality, their costs, etc - before making judgment.

The Motu is £600, I'd consider the Node to be essential for comparing costs although as I said I'm aware cheaper transports can be used - but I already own a Node so no expense to me but otherwise it's £550, Dirac Studio with Bass Control Bundle is £600. So about £1700 + PC costs (not exactly a 1/5 ), and tbh me personally be inclined to go Mac Mini for the sleek, quiet, and generally bother free nature (plus I could use for other duties), £850 for a middle spec M2.
So £2600 (well £2100 as less the Node cost).

How's it all hooked up: Node digital in to the Motu, Motu USB to Mac, DLBC does it's thing and back out to Motu via same USB (presumably as 4 discreet channels for L/R and my 2 subs), then the Motu act's as multi channel preamp and DAC?
- If it's that easy it's not actually that bad of a setup in terms of complication. I think physically the biggest issue I can see is a lack of remote control for volume, although it looks like it has an app called CueMix 5 that would allow volume control? I don't particularly like using a phone for volume but if needs must.

Presumably due to having Dirac processing it means you don't need to care about keeping everything so called 'bit-perfect' either, I guess Dirac probably runs at 24/192 anyway and so no need to have to worry about the usual issues around the MIDI settings (for Mac), i.e set the 4 DAC channel outputs to 24/192 and leave it be.

Would be about half the cost of the M66.....it's food for thought.

 

[MingChops]

The guy in the video says the volume control is analog but the product page says many times that the volume control is digital

M66 - NAD Electronics

The Masters M66 BluOS Streaming DAC-Preamplifier is a revolutionary hi-fi component that combines an audiophile-grade DAC with a high-resolution multi-room music streamer. Featuring Dirac Live Room Correction and Dirac Live Bass Control, its elegant design and vibrant 7" touchscreen exudes...

nadelectronics.com

To paraphrase all that text really says is that a digital volume control mitigates the typical channel imbalances that a pot would typically have, it remains ambiguous as to if the signal is attenuated in either the digital or analogue domain.
However with the understanding that there is a ladder array in there and the guy even comments he can hear the relays clicking - and combined with the other text that says the M66 has an analogue direct mode that bypasses all digital processing. Then it would strike me (an assumption granted) that the signal is attenuated via the ladder array in the analogue domain, and something like a rotary encoder is simply used to control the volume (aka digitally), but it is not actual digital volume control in the sense of digital attenuation with bit truncation.

 

[RosalieTheDog]

This product is too expensive, you pay for the prestige of the brand.

 

[pogo]

Click --> Kick-off

 

[Nondemo01]

This product is too expensive, you pay for the prestige of the brand.

Compared to what? A desktop DAC? A McIntosh 2 channel amp? Some Dan D'Agostino gear? I find it a compelling match to a pair of Perlisten S7ts with a NAD M23 I will soon be purchasing. The M33 and M23 were both reviewed favorably on this site and others so I expect the same high quality performance from the M66. "The value is always in the eye of the beholder...."

 

[Java Lu]

Compared to what? A desktop DAC? A McIntosh 2 channel amp? Some Dan D'Agostino gear? I find it a compelling match to a pair of Perlisten S7ts with a NAD M23 I will soon be purchasing. The M33 and M23 were both reviewed favorably on this site and others so I expect the same high quality performance from the M66. "The value is always in the eye of the beholder...."

Hi, I am a long long time lurker. I have created this account just to make a response to you.
I have placed an order for Perlisten S7t limited edition. also planing to pair it with NAD m23!
I am not sure how well it would turn out, alot of my friends demaning me to pair it with BAT rex 500 or atleast mcintosh. I trust ASR, AH, and good to see another of the like, so let it rip boys =)