pogo
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Do you know the status of the integration tests?
Too bad, the M33 has been measured and you can strongly assume that the M66 can do the same.
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NAD M66 - finally someone makes a decent 2-channel preamp!
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Cpopovic
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And still no Auto-sense on the e-Arc input!
pogo
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Improvements/(bugfixes) are not always listed. In my case, the update took a suspiciously long time, although only new devices were made known to the M33, i.e. more was done to the M33 than is stated in the release notes
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I’m also running an analogue-free M33 as a 2.0 setup in my office/TV room, and an M66/M23 with turntable in my main listening space. I have two subs hooked up to the M66 but I turn them (and Dirac) off when listening to vinyl. I want vinyl to sound pure, and my Monitor PL100s are a perfect match for Coltrane and the like, subs totally unnecessary.
I do recommend you give Dirac another look, you can use curtains to leave the top end untouched, and retain all that sparkle. This is what I’m doing, it helps deal with the problems in my large room while still letting me hear the details.
On a pro-NAD note, I’ve been using NAD equipment for over 40 years, and I think their current product range is the best they’ve ever produced. In the past two years I’ve upgraded my C399 to an M33, and upgraded my C658 to an M66, and couldn’t be happier. My neighbour has my C399 (upgrading his Powernode) and is thrilled, my C658 is downstairs powered by a 25 year old SF Anthem hybrid amp driving 25 year old Meadowlark Kestrels, and that combination (without Dirac) sounds better than most modern systems.
Long story short, haters gonna hate, if you’re reading this wondering about the M33 or M66, trust Stereophile et al, and buy the NAD M (or C) series… you will not be disappointed.
Nocko!
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I hope I wasn't meant to be a "hater". I hate nothing and no one. I actually found the sound of the M66 with DLBC to be excellent.
What I didn't like about the M66 was that while I had it, it was technologically crippled to the core and didn't even had the features touted in the owner's manual.
Nocko!
What I didn't like about the M66 was that while I had it, it was technologically crippled to the core and didn't even had the features touted in the owner's manual.
Nocko!
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Yes, I was referring to your posts, which I find misleading, and I’m trying to provide some balance.
In my limited time reading ASR, I’ve found it to be a place where facts speak and opinion takes a back seat. At least some of what you said was opinion, and (IMO) should have been qualified as such.
I’m sorry you had a faulty unit, my experience with the C399, C658, M33, M23, and M66 units has been only positive. No faults, no issues, and every one does what it says on the tin. They can be complex to get set up correctly, especially the M66, and I wonder if some of the complaints stem from this.
Nocko!
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Perhaps this is some kind of misunderstanding. My unit wasn't faulty. It was identical to every other M66 on the market as far as I can judge. But it didn't do what was announced by NAD. I think I shouldn't repeat all I had written here. But the worst thing was, that NAD announced the option to control the M66 with IP/TCP commands. There are still the documents listed on NAD's M66 download page...
I know this is something more interesting for installers. But as soon as someone who has bought a M66 for about 5.000,- or 6.000,- $/€ decides to install a home automation system, he will be in big trouble. Just try to open port 23 as written in NADs thoughtful documentation and you will see, there is nothing.
And yes - I am with you - here at ASR we should keep an eye on the facts and this is a fact, not an opinion. It was also a fact - as long as I had the M66 - that the subwoofer output was always about 50ms behind the "Analog Direct" input. This makes the Analog Direct option useless for those who want to use subwoofers.
Take care - this is a mere opinion: I think a device should fulfill the options and functions the manufacturer advertised. Isn't that was ASR is all about...?
Nocko!
Thanks for responding - we seem to be of similar minds regarding NAD. I have the M33 but planning to upgrade to M66 plus mono Atma-Sphere power amps (already bought) or perhaps the M23 if this sounds better on side-by-side comparison.
The M66 includes the full frequency range version of Dirac, whereas the M33 offers the version that adjusts only sub 200 Hz. The point about the top-end sparkle being slightly spoilt by Dirac can be explained (my theory anyway) but the fact that the entire full-range signal has to pass the Dirac filter even though only the bass (in the M33) is actually adjusted. The Dirac signal processor is to blame as it is a substantial processor that the top-end has no option but to pass through - there is no "top-end bypass". So the M66's Dirac will likely do the same damage to top end as the M33's. It's very subtle, but is audibly noticeable with high-end speakers. So my preference is not to engage Dirac at all, but I'll do more tests to see if the benefits outweigh the disadvantages in my room.
Well I always used to consider the NAD brand as rather mid-fi, alongside the other popular brands such as Technics, Rotel, Denon, Pioneer, etc - good, but never quite high-end! The NAD Master Series represented a big step forward quality and construction-wise and elevated the brand to a higher level. My first NAD was their M12 preamp, followed by the M50.2, M32 and now M33 - all very good products. I'm sure their C Series are also very good, but not built to the same exceptional standards as the M series.
One of the big new features of the M66 is their multi-sub handling, but I think I've discovered a fundamental snag with this. I've just written to NAD to get clarification, as this may disqualify the M66 from my shortlist. If one has full-range main speakers as I do (they include twin 12" bass drivers), the M66 processor will nobble the bass to my main speakers if I say there are Subs in the system. There is an unavoidable (as far as I can determine) crossover within Settings such that the Main output is deprived of the frequencies below the selected XO - 40 to 200 Hz.. This applies to the M33 (I tested it again yesterday) and I believe the M66 also. [If you choose No Sub in Settings, the Sub Outs in the M33 receive no signal at all, so that's not a solution.] Removing low frequencies from the Main output makes great sense for systems based on stand-mounts or other non-full-range speakers, but is positively harmful for systems that have full-range main speakers.
If you use subs with your M66 and have full-range main speakers, it would be interesting if you could do this test yourself. Unplug the subs from the M66 and listen to the bass from your main speakers alone. Does it sound truncated by the M66 built-in crossover? To verify, keep listening while you go to Settings and switch from With Subs to No Sub - does the bass extension return to your main speakers?
If I'm right, I have to conclude that the M66 will deprive the main speakers of deep bass as long as Subs are engaged within Settings. This is certainly the case with M33.
Sadly Kal's review in Stereophile doesn't help in the use of subs with the M66. He says "Later, I added a pair of KEF KC92 subwoofers via two of the RCA sub outputs." and after than "Before running Dirac or turning on the subwoofers, I turned on the amps and the M66 and ran through a dozen or so familiar recordings ....", but he never tells us how the Sub system works. A real pity as it's one of the big new (and unique to the M66) features of this box of tricks. So Kal - if you are reading this - is the bass to the main speakers nobbled by the M66's crossover if Subs are connected and Settings are set to say there are subs present?
Any information from other M66 users very welcome. Thanks
Nocko!
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That should be true for the M66. But when using DLBC this is also true. So you can't blame NAD in general for this behaviour. It is a crossover. As far as I remember, you can only define the crossover frequency. So yes, all frequencies above the crossover frequency will be cut off - but I don't know what slope is used within the M66 when not using Dirac.
But: With DLBC engaged, large main speakers and two subwoofers I had great results with a quite deep crossover frequency about 40Hz.
Nocko!
Thanks Nocko - I suppose I'm asking because I feel perhaps I shouldn't need subs at all. With twin 12" bass drivers in my main speakers, the only valid reason for subs is to compensate for room-influenced nodes, etc that may upset the flatness of the response at my listening seat. I'm not convinced this is a significant problem in my room now that I've set up my speakers well and paid attention to floor coverings, curtains, furnishings, etc. What bass drivers do your speakers have and do you have subs to improve the bass volume or depth?
Since I bought a pair of REL S812 subs a few months ago, I've almost come to the conclusion they are doing little other than clutter my room! They don't seem to add to the quality of the sound - certainly not to the point of being money well spent.
Perhaps I should be asking myself - if I don't needs subs for extra or deeper bass, should I be considering the M66 with it's high emphasis one sub integration, over (for example) the Eversolo A10? This has an even better DAC, offers several selectable filters as well as "room correction" DSP of undisclosed pedigree - and £1000 less costly! I'd like to stick with NAD's Master Series, but is the M66 the best streamer preamp out there at a sensible price?
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I do not know what "nobbled" means.
OTOH, the quote you offer applies only to early listening using the M66 "running the M66 as a Roon Ready endpoint (via a wired network connection), using Roon to control the music and the Hapi for digital conversion, sending the Hapi's analog output to the M66's balanced analog input, and, finally, by using Roon to send output from the Hapi's AES3 output to the M66's AES3 input."
I think what you are looking for is under the sections "Why add subs?" and "Time for Dirac." Note there was a 70Hz crossover for both the subs and the Blades with DLBC.
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@Hear Here I went through much of the same thinking re M66 in a system without subs. But since then I’ve added two small KEF subs which, even (or especially?) in my large listening room, go a long way to dealing with the bass issues. The M66 is a bit like Microsoft Excel or a 911 Turbo - 99% of us will never use all the features or potential of the amp, but it’s nice to know it’s there.
@Nocko! Thanks for the correction and additional information. I agree with you, of course, that NAD should support every feature, no matter how few people might use it. My use case is more ‘typical’ and my positive comments re the brand are directed at the majority of typical users.
@Nocko! Thanks for the correction and additional information. I agree with you, of course, that NAD should support every feature, no matter how few people might use it. My use case is more ‘typical’ and my positive comments re the brand are directed at the majority of typical users.
@Hear Here When (or maybe that should be 'if' knowing NAD) the M66 gets the Dirac ART update, that would then allow you to run the main speakers full range whilst also having subs. They did confirm the M66 will get an ART update, but then they also at various points said that about the M33 and C658 etc getting DLBC, which seems incredibly unlikely now. So holding of ones breath would not be recommended for this!
I guess it could depend how NAD implement it, so confirmation and/or patience will ultimately be required, but as a core idea behind ART is to allow full range speakers to participate in providing bass rather than using strict crossovers (as is the case with regular Dirac and DLBC), I strongly suspect this will be the answer for your setup.
I guess it could depend how NAD implement it, so confirmation and/or patience will ultimately be required, but as a core idea behind ART is to allow full range speakers to participate in providing bass rather than using strict crossovers (as is the case with regular Dirac and DLBC), I strongly suspect this will be the answer for your setup.
Firstly Kal, I must apologise for not re-reading your M66 review fully. I had read it when first published, but rather more sketchily before my post here.
By nobbled I mean that my main speakers are deprived of the low frequencies that they are well capable of producing if the M66 is told there are subs present.
Having paid a high price for high-end speakers that feature twin 12" drivers, I would feel cheated if they are not allowed to deliver frequencies below the crossover chosen for the Sub output. I would like subs to be used solely for "fill-in" to support the main speakers if room nodes are present that detract from their bass performance.
You found that 70Hz with your Blade 2 speakers was ideal and I imagine that depriving them of sub-70 Hz would probably be appropriate and justified in view of their relatively small bass drivers - leave deep bass to to subs! The trouble for owners of genuinely full-range speakers (typically with big bass drivers such as Avantgarde, hybrid Martin Logan, big Magico, etc) is that we don't want to protect them from these low frequencies and we use subs solely for the purpose I mentioned. The M66 seemingly doesn't allow for this. As soon as you say there are subs present, it insists on a crossover and it will not allow the Mains to receive anything below that XO. I'm awaiting a reply from NAD over this question, as otherwise I'd suggest the M66 is unlikely to suit owners of full-range main speakers - very unfortunately as I've been planning this as an upgrade since it was first announced. All the more odd, because its predecessor, the M12 allowed the Main to remain receiving a full-range signal while the Subs could be sent frequencies below the set XO; similarly the M32 offered this. Sadly, this more flexible feature has been ditched by NAD in the M33 and seemingly also the M66. I'll report back when I have news from NAD.
It will be interesting to see if NAD mention this when they reply to my question.
At this point, connect the subs to the remaining pre-out outputs and use Dirac full without DBLC, you have the option to cut the crossover of the subs below a certain frequency.
Nocko!
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My main speakers have two 8" bass drivers per channel (Wilson Audio Sasha I) and my two subwoofers are 12" each (Velodyne DD-12). Both old stuff...
In general in my rooms there was always by far to much bass, combined with dips in certain bass regions. I think you can't avoid this in an usual living room. So I always (since around 20 years) try to "tame" the bass and achieve more linearity. It's not about more bass volume.
I can't speak for your system and your room. My system sits in a living room that is just partially acoustical treated. I don't think that you can tame room resonances with furniture or reasonable actions in a living room without getting divorced all of a sudden ...
Keep in mind that a 50Hz wave is about 7m long. If your main speakers are aligned in parallel to the rear or front wall you must have peaks and dips in the frequency range between 20-150Hz depending on the size of your room. This is pure physics. But most people got used to such "boomy" sound, that's why nearly all providers of room correction systems probably recommend increasing the bass after correction.
But you have the means to check your room: What does a Dirac measurement (uncorrected) show you when just using your main speakers? Do you have a screenshot of your last measurement with Dirac?
I can't think of a room that doesn't get better when you use subwoofers to treat your dips in the bass frequencies that are left by the main speakers. Of course the subwoofers should be positioned in another distance to your main listening position than your main speakers. To put main speakers and subwoofers in one line makes things worse. Ups - Sorry, I don't want to be preachy here...but it would be very strange if using your great subwoofers didn't improve the sound in your room when using Dirac / DLBC correctly.
DLBC did a got job as long as I allowed the system to let the main speakers play quite deep. Dirac doesn't tell you exactly with which slopes it works with. I think it's about 12dB only, which is great. So you can "mix" the bass from you main speakers and your subwoofers quite well in the range of the crossover frequency. When using DLBC with the M66 the internal settings of the crossover are overruled by Dirac (as far as I remember...).
Dirac ART is something completely different. It doesn't use crossovers at all, not even in a home cinema setup. ART is really a beast in terms of "acoustical corrections". If someone thinks that Dirac spoils his listening experience then he shouldn't think about ART at all.
But I don't know if there will be ART for the M66. ART is quite complex and as far as I understand for now, the options ART gives you depend on the power of the DSPs that are used within the specific preamp.
Nocko!
P.S.: I think I missed your question, did I ?
