NAD M23 V2 vs. McIntosh 312 vs. Pass Labs X150.8

[Hue Man]

Hi Guys.
I'm creating my retirement/end game system and would like some input. I'm currently at the drywall stage down in the basement so the purchase decision is months off and I intend to listen to each before my decision (maybe even in-home if I can swing it). Your input would be greatly appreciated.

The Room:
19'8" x 14'8 with a 6'10" suspended ceiling (I know) and cement floors with a rug. There will be room treatments (including Rockwool in the ceiling).

The Gear I currently have:

1. NAD M66 https://www.crutchfield.com/p_745M66/NAD-Masters-Series-M66.html
2. PS Audio Aspen FR-20s https://www.psaudio.com/products/aspen-fr20-loudspeaker/
3. 2 KEF KC62 https://www.crutchfield.com/S-WMZopu6kcSr/p_991KC62B/KEF-KC62-Carbon-Black.html

The Options:

1. McIntosh MC312 https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/amplifiers/MC312
2. NAD M23 V2 https://www.crutchfield.com/p_745M23V2/NAD-Masters-Series-M23-V2.html
3. Pass Labs X150.8 https://www.moon-audio.com/products/pass-labs-x150-8-amplifier

My currents thoughts:

McIntosh -

My favorite power amp brand. (Have the MC152 and love it.)
The warmness might go well with the M23 and Aspens.
Love the look, but not a match with the M23.
I can get it a from local dealer (stereo dealer) who I used to walked by twice a day during college. (Go Badgers) I got the MC 152 from him.
The NAD and the MC have the best shot of being home demoed.

NAD M23 V2 -

Matches the best with the M66 (including stylistically).
Maybe too detailed when combined with the M23 and Aspens.
Local dealer; the NAD and the MC have the best shot of being home demoed.
Measures about as well as anything.

Pass Labs X150.8

I hear Nelson Pass is a genius.
Class A up to around 15 Watts (Which may be all I need) but about 300 total watts into 4 ohms. Have not heard Class A yet, but I like the idea.
Closest dealer in Chicago (about 2.5 hrs away).
Doubt I'll get a home demo.
Doesn't measure well. (HERE IS WHERE THE FUN BEGINS.) I believe that measurements matter if you can hear them. They also matter if you can't hear them (but a little bit less). If you hear
something that you can't pass a blind A/B test on, I guess placebos are a nice thing if they don't cost too much.
Might match well with the NAD M66/Aspen combo.
I like the look, just wish it had real meters

Thanks for all of the input.

 

[DVDdoug]

McIntosh -

My favorite power amp brand. (Have the MC152 and love it.)
The warmness might go well with the M23 and Aspens.

I'm sure the McIntosh is "perfect" and not "warm" or anything like that. i.e. A "straight wire with gain". Heck, even in the tube days, McIntosh was known for perfect sound.*

The other amps are likely audibly transparent too. With modern electronics it's cheap and easy to make something better than human hearing. (Power still costs money, but good-quality class-D power is very economical.)

So my only real advice is, don't by an amplifier for it's "sound quality/character". ...That's for speakers (and headphones).

Class A up to around 15 Watts (Which may be all I need) but about 300 total watts into 4 ohms. Have not heard Class A yet, but I like the idea.

Class-A isn't the "best", it was simply the 1st way to make an amplifier. When I was growing up in the 1960s my AM tube radio had a class-A amplifier, as well as our TV and car radios etc. Class A/B requires one more tube, transistor, or MOSFET so you'd only find class A/B in more expensive and more powerful hi-fi equipment. Class-A is energy inefficient Class-D requires a LOT more electronics but it's nearly 100% efficient and with all of the electronics in a chip it's more economical per-watt. And since it doesn't have to dissipate as much heat it can be smaller and lighter.

I hear Nelson Pass is a genius.
Class A up to around 15 Watts

So basically class A/B, except that class A/B is usually only "class-A" up to around 1 Watt.

They also matter if you can't hear them (but a little bit less).

IMO - It's best to think logically and economically. If "A" has 0.01% distortion and "B" has 0.0001% distortion, how much more would you pay for the lower distortion. Or, would you want the lower distortion amp if it was ugly or if you had to wait a couple of months for delivery, or if was less reliable?



* Somebody gave me a McIntosh tube amp in the 1970's. It sounded perfect but it was mono so I eventually gave it away to someone else.

 

[LumiAudioNut]

Hi Guys.
I'm creating my retirement/end game system and would like some input. I'm currently at the drywall stage down in the basement so the purchase decision is months off and I intend to listen to each before my decision (maybe even in-home if I can swing it). Your input would be greatly appreciated.

The Room:
19'8" x 14'8 with a 6'10" suspended ceiling (I know) and cement floors with a rug. There will be room treatments (including Rockwool in the ceiling).

The Gear I currently have:

1. NAD M66 https://www.crutchfield.com/p_745M66/NAD-Masters-Series-M66.html
2. PS Audio Aspen FR-20s https://www.psaudio.com/products/aspen-fr20-loudspeaker/
3. 2 KEF KC62 https://www.crutchfield.com/S-WMZopu6kcSr/p_991KC62B/KEF-KC62-Carbon-Black.html

The Options:

1. McIntosh MC312 https://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/amplifiers/MC312
2. NAD M23 V2 https://www.crutchfield.com/p_745M23V2/NAD-Masters-Series-M23-V2.html
3. Pass Labs X150.8 https://www.moon-audio.com/products/pass-labs-x150-8-amplifier

My currents thoughts:

McIntosh -

My favorite power amp brand. (Have the MC152 and love it.)
The warmness might go well with the M23 and Aspens.
Love the look, but not a match with the M23.
I can get it a from local dealer (stereo dealer) who I used to walked by twice a day during college. (Go Badgers) I got the MC 152 from him.
The NAD and the MC have the best shot of being home demoed.

NAD M23 V2 -

Matches the best with the M66 (including stylistically).
Maybe too detailed when combined with the M23 and Aspens.
Local dealer; the NAD and the MC have the best shot of being home demoed.
Measures about as well as anything.

Pass Labs X150.8

I hear Nelson Pass is a genius.
Class A up to around 15 Watts (Which may be all I need) but about 300 total watts into 4 ohms. Have not heard Class A yet, but I like the idea.
Closest dealer in Chicago (about 2.5 hrs away).
Doubt I'll get a home demo.
Doesn't measure well. (HERE IS WHERE THE FUN BEGINS.) I believe that measurements matter if you can hear them. They also matter if you can't hear them (but a little bit less). If you hear
something that you can't pass a blind A/B test on, I guess placebos are a nice thing if they don't cost too much.
Might match well with the NAD M66/Aspen combo.
I like the look, just wish it had real meters

Thanks for all of the input.

Hi Hue Man,

Welcome to the forums.

Since a review with measurements for the Pass Labs X150.8 are hard to come by, I thought I would share one:

https://www.alpha-audio.net/review/review-pass-labs-x150-8-entry-level-pass-or-is-it/4/

Interestingly, the measurements shows that total harmonic distortion improved by a not completely insignificant amount after the amplifier had “broken in” over a period of 2 months. I’ve seen this behavior before; usually in amplifiers with a significant amount of class A output. Some people will say that amplifier break in is a myth (it usually is!), but it isn’t always.

There was also a 2 to 3 watt improvement in output power (also proven by measurements).

 

[Hue Man]

I'm sure the McIntosh is "perfect" and not "warm" or anything like that. i.e. A "straight wire with gain". Heck, even in the tube days, McIntosh was known for perfect sound.*

The other amps are likely audibly transparent too. With modern electronics it's cheap and easy to make something better than human hearing. (Power still costs money, but good-quality class-D power is very economical.)

So my only real advice is, don't by an amplifier for it's "sound quality/character". ...That's for speakers (and headphones).


Class-A isn't the "best", it was simply the 1st way to make an amplifier. When I was growing up in the 1960s my AM tube radio had a class-A amplifier, as well as our TV and car radios etc. Class A/B requires one more tube, transistor, or MOSFET so you'd only find class A/B in more expensive and more powerful hi-fi equipment. Class-A is energy inefficient Class-D requires a LOT more electronics but it's nearly 100% efficient and with all of the electronics in a chip it's more economical per-watt. And since it doesn't have to dissipate as much heat it can be smaller and lighter.


So basically class A/B, except that class A/B is usually only "class-A" up to around 1 Watt.


IMO - It's best to think logically and economically. If "A" has 0.01% distortion and "B" has 0.0001% distortion, how much more would you pay for the lower distortion. Or, would you want the lower distortion amp if it was ugly or if you had to wait a couple of months for delivery, or if was less reliable?



* Somebody gave me a McIntosh tube amp in the 1970's. It sounded perfect but it was mono so I eventually gave it away to someone else.

Thanks for the input.

Some people say Class A sounds better despite the higher distortion. I hope to listen to it and wonder if I can hear the difference.

 

[Descartes]

Thanks for the input.

Some people say Class A sounds better despite the higher distortion. I hope to listen to it and wonder if I can hear the difference.

Let us know

 

[Hue Man]

This will be a couple of months. Wall insulation up. Drywall, ceiling insulation, paint floor and suspended ceiling next. Axpona 2026 Chicago in April will be my first chance to easily hear the Pass Labs without driving to downtown Chicago.

 

[RayFar]

@Hue Man, Very curious to know which amplifier you decided to buy. I am looking at buying the NAD M23 v2, simply because it takes less space, and creates less heat. And with Purifi amps inside, I know it is very transparent and clean.

 

[Hue Man]

@Hue Man, Very curious to know which amplifier you decided to buy. I am looking at buying the NAD M23 v2, simply because it takes less space, and creates less heat. And with Purifi amps inside, I know it is very transparent and clean.

Drywall up, mudding/taping this week so we are making progress. It's probably going to be the M23 v2 just because of how it would match the M66. (I was thinking of 2 but thought that was overkill) They just look good together and I liked how detailed each component would be. I could probably bring in the Mc 312 to try from my local dealer, but I probably won't. (I will be getting a Mcintosh preamp and a too expensive Mc-box for my Node Icon to go with my MC152 in my living room.) Chicago stereo show is in April so I will listen to Pass Labs but doubt it will change my mind (and I'll probably have the NAD by then). Now that PS Audio's new I sub came out, I might go with them if I can find a refurbished one. I'll let you know in a couple of months.

 

[Nopiano]

As this is ASR, the logic says the NAD. That’s the head decision.

As it’s Valentine’s Day, the heart decision is the Pass, especially once you read the review at post #3!

BTW, with a similar space, I love the Pass Labs XA25. Definitely a heart decision, but one I don’t regret. (I also have two class D amps as alternatives).

 

[Hue Man]

I agree. It is most likely going to be the NAD.

I'm probably going to Axpona in Chicago in April. This will be my first opportunity to hear the Pass. I'm hoping that it doesn't blow my mind because buying the NAD or MC312 from my local dealer would be my preference, but you never know.

 

[Hear Here]

You are clearly, and quite rightly, paying most attention to your speakers, although I've not ever seen or heard the Aspens. Personally I'd go for a budget ratio of speakers to electronics (streaming only) at about 3:1.

Here's another thought. Rather than M66 and (probably) M23, have you considered the M33 Version 2?

I ask because I'm likely to sell my M66 and move back to M33 that I truly love. Although my M33 is V1, it is a spectacular package and offers features lost in the M66. The M33 V2 looks even better with Second Generation Purifi amplification (same as M23 V2), an even better DAC than the M66, and (hopefully) offers a feature I miss with the M66 - the ability to display the front panel information (album artwork, etc) onto an HDMI-connected TV. Also, the M33 V1 responds much more smoothly to its IR remote (volume moves in 0.5dB steps), whereas the M66 jumps 2 or 3dB per touch. I don't know if the M33 V2 retains this advantage but I'm doubtful as I think it will come with the same remote as the M66.

I'm currently using my M66 with the great Atma-Sphere Class D mono amps, but if you regularly play your music loudly, I possibly wouldn’t recommend these with your relatively low-sensitivity speakers as they are only 100 watts. My own Avantgarde Duo XD speakers are 107 dB, so 100 watts is more than enough!

I really would recommend you arrange home demos of your shortlisted amps. I bought or borrowed a dozen amps before settling on the NAD about 3 years ago. Others were more costly, but none matched the M33’s combination of sound quality, features and price. These were all solid state but included Class A, AB and D. It was surprising how much these good amps varied in sound quality, so home demo was essential in ending up with the best sound.

PS - Are you aware that the M66 (and M33) will deprive your main speakers of very low frequencies if you tell it there are subs present? It insists you specify an XO and this applies to both the main outs and the sub outs. There's a workaround that I use as I don't want my genuinely full-range main speaker to be nobbled by NAD!

 

[Hue Man]

I had not thought about the M33 V2 since I already had the M66, but the M66 could stay where it is. It is my (limited) understanding that to display the front panel information (album artwork, etc) onto an HDMI-connected TV, you would need an HDMI out on the amp. M33 V2 doesn't have that but I see the MDC HDM-2 has an HDMI out for M33 V1 only if the site is up to date. They don't call it V1 so maybe it would work. https://nadelectronics.com/product/mdc-hdm-2-hdmi/

I knew about the NAD XO issue and I was prepared to live with it but would love to hear your workaround. I could probably arrange a M33 V2 and M23 loaner from dealer since I have bought from him in the past. I assume I should have my bass traps and 1st reflection points addressed first.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Descartes]

Still not reviewed the NAD M23v2

 

[Hue Man]

Actually I went with NAD M23v2 but i don't have it downstairs yet. I'm almost done with insulation in the ceiling. Just ceiling tiles and painting floor/walls.

I have a MC152 in the living room and I'm going to put a McIntosh C8 or C2700 with it to have a tube base option. Never got to hear the pass Labs.

 

[RayFar]

@Hue Man , not sure if you are done with the construction and the equipment setup. Hope all went well and you're now enjoying the music!
I did purchase the NAD M23 v2 many months ago. It is as described, very transparent and revealing in my system connecting to Focal Sopra speakers. In fact almost too clean and transparent in some ways, and I am now planning to change my solid-state preamp to a tube preamp (most likely Rogue Audio RP-7) to add some character and warmth to the sound. Curious what your experience has been.

 

[Hue Man]

I'm at the point of ceiling tiles, painting and then install followed by room treatment. I got the C2700 relatively cheap new in the unopened box from my dealer. The NAD M23/M66 Aspen FR-20s may end up too revealing and maybe I switch them for the C2700 and a McIntosh 462 (that I don't currently have) but I'll have to give the NADs time. Those Mc's are going to be heavy to move around. Basement room will have low to the ground single shelves side by side, but living room is a stereo rack which makes the Mcs a two person job. Looking forward to getting it finished.

 

[edved]

I was going to go with the 312, but went with the M23 v2. Speakers are the Meta R 11's connected to the Eversolo A8. I'm interested to hear what your take is on the NAD.