NAD M10 V3 is not loud enough ... the solution could be ...?

[dutchman]

I Hello!
bought the M10 V3. But I have to turn it up to -10 to -5db to hear vinyl records loud enough and about -20db for anything else.
So I bought the Fosi Box X5 pre amp. It's louder (even at the lowest gain) than the internal phono pre amp. But there is a hum which I can't eliminate.
I will return it.

Does it make sense to buy 2 Fosi V3 Mono to have more power? And: Is it better than the build in nCore in the NAD m10 V3?

 

[staticV3]

Does it make sense to buy 2 Fosi V3 Mono to have more power?

No. More power won't solve anything.

This is a gain issue, which is entirely separate from output power.

If the combination of phono cartridge + M10 internal Phono pre + internal ADC is mismatched in signal amplitude compared to your other sources, then to fix it you'd have to replace one or more of these components.

You could for example buy a new cartridge with higher output voltage.

Buying an external Phono pre with more gain than what's built into the M10 ist also possible, but as you've already experienced, ground loop induced mains hum ist often an issue and requires special care in grounding to eliminate.

If you still have the Fosi Box X5, then you could try buying a miniDSP Pocket ADC and doing Fosi->RCA->PocketADC->Optical->NAD M10.

The Optical connection can break ground loops and remove mains hum.

A more elegant solution would be a Parks Audio Waxwing, which is however a sizeable investment albeit a brilliant piece of kit.

It has a host of DSP features purpose-built for improving vinyl playback, all controlled via Bluetooth from your phone.

There's a volume control as well so you could configure it once to match your other sources, then uninstall the App and you'd have a perfect match.

 

[IngMishael]

so it is not the M10 just the phono stage component of the M10 that is lacking. Why did you not get a dedicated phono stage like the Cambridge Alva Solo or Duo. or a Schiit Mani 2/ Skoll

and then gotten something like the Wiim Amp Ultra?

 

[dutchman]

Thanks to both of you!
1. I had the Cambridge Solo, but there was a hum too. Not with the internal pre amp!
2. What is ADC? (I'm from germany)
3. Even streaming is not as loud as expected. To push the volume to ¾ or more is unfamiliar to me.
Or is it just unfamiliar because the volume display is different from a knob that you turn? I hope you know what I mean.

 

[staticV3]

so it is not the M10 just the phono stage component of the M10 that is lacking. Why did you not get a dedicated phono stage like the Cambridge Alva Solo or Duo. or a Schiit Mani 2/ Skoll

and then gotten something like the Wiim Amp Ultra?

Dutchman did get a dedicated phono stage (Fosi Box X5), but experienced a ground loop.

 

[dutchman]

@IngMishael ... I want dirac, so no Wiim amp

 

[staticV3]

What is ADC?

The opposite of DAC (Digital to Analog Converter)

It's what the M10's analog inputs are connected to internally so that the built-in DSP can continue working no matter if the source signal is digital or analog.

A miniDSP PocketADC or Parks Audio Waxwing would bypass both the M10's internal Phono Pre and internal ADC, so would give you more flexibility to match signal levels across sources.

 

[dutchman]

The opposite of DAC (Digital to Analog Converter)

It's what the M10's analog inputs are connected to internally so that the built-in DSP can continue working no matter if the source signal is digital or analog.

Thanks!

 

[dutchman]

No. More power won't solve anything.

This is a gain issue, which is entirely separate from output power.

If the combination of phono cartridge + M10 internal Phono pre + internal ADC is mismatched in signal amplitude compared to your other sources, then to fix it you'd have to replace one or more of these components.

You could for example buy a new cartridge with higher output voltage.

Buying an external Phono pre with more gain than what's built into the M10 ist also possible, but as you've already experienced, ground loop induced mains hum ist often an issue and requires special care in grounding to eliminate.

If you still have the Fosi Box X5, then you could try buying a miniDSP Pocket ADC and doing Fosi->RCA->PocketADC->Optical->NAD M10.

The Optical connection can break ground loops and remove mains hum.

A more elegant solution would be a Parks Audio Waxwing, which is however a sizeable investment albeit a brilliant piece of kit.

It has a host of DSP features purpose-built for improving vinyl playback, all controlled via Bluetooth from your phone.

There's a volume control as well so you could configure it once to match your other sources, then uninstall the App and you'd have a perfect match.

Thanks, but I had a minidsp for years and I was happy to find a all in one solution.
I never had to turn the volume up to 0db to get it loud enough. Perhaps I should live with it ?!

 

[staticV3]

Thanks, but I had a minidsp for years and I was happy to find a all in one solution.
I never had to turn the volume up to 0db to get it loud enough. Perhaps I should live with it ?!

I mean, there's nothing wrong with leaving it at 0 if that's loud enough for you.

It's not like that adds distortion or anything.

Btw, the PocketADC is not at all like a regular miniDSP.

There's no EQ or DSP built into it at all.

Its only purpose here would be to try and remove the hum thanks to the Optical connection, so you could use the Fosi X5 to get more volume without the annoying hum.

 

[dutchman]

By the way: My not so cheap Philips Hue LEDs (the power supplys) cause problems with external phono pre amps and I have no solution.
Even when the LEDs are off. When they are on it's getting worse.

 

[dutchman]

I mean, there's nothing wrong with leaving it at 0 if that's loud enough for you.

It's not like that adds distortion or anything.

Btw, the PocketADC is not at all like a regular miniDSP.

There's no EQ or DSP built into it at all.

Its only purpose here would be to try and remove the hum thanks to the Optical connection, so you could use the Fosi X5 to get more volume without the annoying hum.

Wow! That sounds very interesting! I will take a closer look at the pocket adc!
And it's interesting that -5 or even 0db is not a problem.

And ... I have an idea to solve the LED problem.

 

[LTig]

Thanks, but I had a minidsp for years and I was happy to find a all in one solution.
I never had to turn the volume up to 0db to get it loud enough. Perhaps I should live with it ?!

There is nothing wrong with turning the volume to its maximum value (whatever this is) as long as the sound is OK. That's what they are made for.

 

[F1Fan72]

There is nothing wrong with turning the volume to its maximum value (whatever this is) as long as the sound is OK. That's what they are made for.

Even up to 11

 

[dougi]

You will often have this issue with vinyl compared with digital sources, as there needs to be headroom for the vinyl pops etc and, typically, nominal vinyl preamp output level is 500mV compared with 2V for a DAC. Or, if using an ADC based phono preamp, such as in the M10, likely designed for around 15dB headroom digitally, where digital sources will depend on the production, typically very little.

 

[dutchman]

You will often have this issue with vinyl compared with digital sources, as there needs to be headroom for the vinyl pops etc and, typically, nominal vinyl preamp output level is 500mV compared with 2V for a DAC. Or, if using an ADC based phono preamp, such as in the M10, likely designed for around 15dB headroom digitally, where digital sources will depend on the production, typically very little.

Very interesting, thank you!

 

[Deleted member 89782]

@IngMishael ... I want dirac, so no Wiim amp

Dirac could be one of the problems. I‘ve seen multiple comments regarding Dirac on the M33. Extreme Dirac corrections lead to an overall low gain in volume. Not exactly related to your phono stage issue but you mentioned that digital was also not as loud as expected.

 

[dutchman]

Dirac could be one of the problems. I‘ve seen multiple comments regarding Dirac on the M33. Extreme Dirac corrections lead to an overall low gain in volume. Not exactly related to your phono stage issue but you mentioned that digital was also not as loud as expected.

Thanks! But I only correct up to 700Hz. The volume without Dirac is nearly the same.

 

[kyuu]

Regardless of where you stop the correction, Dirac reserves 10dB of headroom so I'd be surprised if it's not noticeably affecting your headroom. I certainly have to turn my AVR up by 10 notches to get the same volume with a Dirac filter enabled.

 

[DVinylfan]

The info missing from this thread is what cartridge you are using, and specifically its output in mV.
For example many HOMC cartridges are designed for use with MM phono stages, but their relatively low output (in general) often equates to low volume.