Mysterious driver

[Pearljam5000]

Does anyone know which driver is used in this speaker?

 

[Arindal]

Does anyone know which driver is used in this speaker?

Do not recognize this particular model, but the diaphragm and half-transparent dustcap reminds me of B&C, 18sound, Faital or Lavoce designs. Maybe the basket is bigger and the driver is filed under 6" or 6.5"?

 

[voodooless]

Yup, it's probably B&C 5FCX44 or 5CXN44

The CD will easily do 113 dB (with only af few Watts). The 5" driver, however, is not even 90 dB efficient, and it has an Xvar of only 5 mm, so the Xmax is way smaller.. It will not do 113 dB comfortably, definitely not down low (< 300 Hz or so).

$ 5k speaker with $300 worth of drivers... I don't think that is the best deal you can have..

 

[respice finem]

I've seen similar front panel designs in churches, but it weren't loudspeakers (scnr)

 

[Mart68]

Yup, it's probably B&C 5FCX44 or 5CXN44

View attachment 462195​

View attachment 462196

The CD will easily do 113 dB (with only af few Watts). The 5" driver, however, is not even 90 dB efficient, and it has an Xvar of only 5 mm, so the Xmax is way smaller.. It will not do 113 dB comfortably, definitely not down low (< 300 Hz or so).

$ 5k speaker with $300 worth of drivers... I don't think that is the best deal you can have..

$300 of drivers translates to $3K at retail price. If you want to make any worthwhile profit.

Ten times the BOM is the rule of thumb.

 

[voodooless]

$300 of drivers translates to $3K at retail price. If you want to make any worthwhile profit.

Ten times the BOM is the rule of thumb.

That's still almost half.. Plus that I pay $300 for the driver, they certainly will not. And big brands like KEF certainly will not abide by the 10x factor. Better just get an LS50 Meta...

 

[Mart68]

That's still almost half.. Plus that I pay $300 for the driver, they certainly will not. And big brands like KEF certainly will not abide by the 10x factor. Better just get an LS50 Meta...

There's the cabs to consider too. Quality wood is no longer cheap.

Yes, they'll get a price break on the drivers if they order a lot of them in one go, I very much doubt this is volume manufacturing though.

Of course you could DIY a lot cheaper but then there's zero overheads, no sales tax, no dealer margin, no distributer margin, and no need for a profit margin...

Obviously a high volume manufacturer like KEF can offer better sound to pound value that goes without saying.

 

[Arindal]

Of course you could DIY a lot cheaper

Designing a competent crossover for such a driver requires an experienced specialist and lots of iterative optimization. DIY will become much more expensive if you take that into account.

And big brands like KEF certainly will not abide by the 10x factor. Better just get an LS50 Meta...

Tbh I find this calculation weird. Why should one want to buy a manufactured product and make sure a certain percentage of money goes into the driver? Isn't is the result in terms of sound quality that is counting? I would not want to have a speaker not matching my needs, even if the manufacturer claims to put 50% of the budget into drivers.

 

[Roland68]

That's still almost half.. Plus that I pay $300 for the driver, they certainly will not. And big brands like KEF certainly will not abide by the 10x factor. Better just get an LS50 Meta...

Most people don't realize how little material can be used to produce speakers and other devices.
Most people also don't realize how little of each €/$ of the RRP reaches a manufacturer with regular distribution channels.

You can assume that large brands, such as KEF and JBL, in particular, have to adhere to this 10-fold rule. On top of that, all the other costs, such as production, development, administration, distribution, buildings, electricity, water, taxes, employees, packaging, storage, and much more, come into play.

 

[voodooless]

You can assume that large brands, such as KEF and JBL, in particular, have to adhere to this 10-fold rule. On top of that, all the other costs, such as production, development, administration, distribution, buildings, electricity, water, taxes, employees, packaging, storage, and much more, come into play.

Maybe they do. It could be that the LS50 Meta driver costs about $50 to produce. Certainly, economies of scale kick in for those companies. Obviously, the cost of the components isn't indicative of the full price.

Still, $5k for a pair of simple 5" PA coaxes in a nice wooden enclosure is rather pushing it, if you ask me.

 

[voodooless]

Designing a competent crossover for such a driver requires an experienced specialist and lots of iterative optimization. DIY will become much more expensive if you take that into account.

But not that much more expensive. Just get a DSP plate amp, and you'll have all the flexibility you need.

Tbh I find this calculation weird. Why should one want to buy a manufactured product and make sure a certain percentage of money goes into the driver? Isn't is the result in terms of sound quality that is counting? I would not want to have a speaker not matching my needs, even if the manufacturer claims to put 50% of the budget into drivers.

I think that for such a product, it's not just about sound quality. It's probably as much about the looks and design, status, etc..

The multiplier is just a factor that is a rough estimate of what is needed to earn a decent amount of money on the product. But generally, I think the more premium the product, the higher that multiplier seems to be.

 

[Mart68]

Designing a competent crossover for such a driver requires an experienced specialist and lots of iterative optimization. DIY will become much more expensive if you take that into account.

The only cost there is capacitors, resistors and inductors and they are not expensive - or don't have to be.

Since it is DIY you're not costing your time, so even if it takes you 8 hours a day for five years to come up with the ideal crossover, the time cost you nothing.

These days you can simulate to get in the ballpark and just adjust from there, you don't need to be an 'experienced specialist' although obviously that would help.

 

[Arindal]

Just get a DSP plate amp, and you'll have all the flexibility you need.

A DSP plate amp offering sufficient power for the LF (the manufacturer is claiming 300 Watts which sounds a bit optimistic) costs significantly more than the driver. And yes, there are quite flexible DSP models on the market, but getting the crossover for a horn-loaded coaxial driver to perfection is a time-consuming process and requires an experienced speaker developer. It takes more than running it through single-driver measurements, a simulation tool and be fine with a flat response, like it is the case with so many conventional DIY projects.

But generally, I think the more premium the product, the higher that multiplier seems to be.

Do not see a general rule of thumb at play here. There are some modestly or steeply priced active speakers with obviously pretty affordable drivers (like Neumann, Bose, Kii Audio) as well as surprisingly expensive units used.

If there is no obvious flaw caused by a cheap driver, I would rather care for overall sound quality and how much of competence went into the concept and how it is playing out.

$5k for a pair of simple 5" PA coaxes in a nice wooden enclosure is rather pushing it, if you ask me.

Have never listened to these, but would by just looking at the specs prefer such a concept at any time over a $1.5K 2-way coaxial bookshelf with insufficient diaphragm area and an unacceptable step up in directivity.

These days you can simulate to get in the ballpark and just adjust from there, you don't need to be an 'experienced specialist'

Have you been designing speakers employing a horn-loaded coaxial driver from the pro market? I have been involved in such projects, and can tell you from own experience that these are beasts. A simulation or a flat response gets you nowhere, only to a speaker which sounds shrill, colorated or screams.

 

[a4eaudio]

1) Rules of thumb aren't really "rules"
2) Market price is determined by supply=demand

 

[Looneybomber]

If it’s a US made enclosure, the high price is from labor. There’s no reason to have a wood shop, woodworking skills, and speaker design skills and then get paid less than someone who mows lawns. Therefore, the person charges enough to make it worth their time. As slow as I am at building speakers, if I were to try to make a living from it, they would have to be priced like a car…and no one would want to buy them.

 

[a4eaudio]

...There’s no reason to have a wood shop, woodworking skills, and speaker design skills and then get paid less than someone who mows lawns. Therefore, the person charges enough to make it worth their time. ....

Unfortunately, people don't get to choose what they are paid. Supply=Demand. If there is a large supply of woodworkers (because it's a fun hobby) but a large demand for lawn care specialists (because people hate mowing their own lawn) then lawn maintenance workers will get paid more than woodworkers.

 

[Mart68]

Have you been designing speakers employing a horn-loaded coaxial driver from the pro market?

I have designed speakers, but - no.

 

[voodooless]

A DSP plate amp offering sufficient power for the LF (the manufacturer is claiming 300 Watts which sounds a bit optimistic) costs significantly more than the driver.

It’s a 5” driver, it doesn’t need 300W, nor will it be happy to handle it, no matter what the datasheet says.

Regardless, you are correct of course that it’s not cheaper. But a DIYer usually doesn’t make one speaker, so you can reuse it multiple times.

Many DIYers also spend an inordinate amount on premium crossover parts. When experimenting, you’ll need a set of caps and coils to mix and match. That adds costs as well. If you do this, get the cheap stuff to experiment!

 

[Saponetto]

What is it, a Necronomicon-based image?

 

[AcousticTheory]

$ 5k speaker with $300 worth of drivers... I don't think that is the best deal you can have..

The enclosures look like a fine woodworking product, and not one from China. It has artisanal touches that will require a great deal of time to make and finish. The typical high end speaker sells for between 6 and 10 times the BOM cost, because of the limited sales volume and the need to finance the operations of a company based on the sales, with enough cushion to withstand hard economic times and make a profit. The list of failed speaker companies is long, and full of idealistic people who thought they were going to save the audio industry from high prices, precisely because they could not make enough money to stay in business. People complaining about the cost of a speaker relative to the cost of its drivers don't really know how the industry works; if you want to reduce the value of a speaker to its key components then I'll sell you a pile of drivers and wish you good luck.