My Topping EX5 review

[Deleted member 35357]

In some, not all headphones. Depending on the impedance of the headphone and how it's FR changes with impedance.

But it would explain why some didn't like the EX5 in their reviews if they use headphones that are effected by the output impedance. I suspect more do than doesn't.

There is a stark effect depending on the impedance to colour the sound on some.
The one in this thread that complained said himself he used 11 Ohm output device prior and changed to this 0.4 Ohm one and didn't like it at all.

There could have been a stark difference in the frequency response depending on the headphones he used to test.
I was a little disappointed in my new DT 900 PRO X purchase paired with this EX5 and the link I provided explains quite a bit what might be happening. I'm missing lots and lots of the bass frequency range with this device 0.4 Ohm output if that line & response goes even lower at below 5Ohm as they tested it with.

 

[Jimbob54]

But it would explain why some didn't like the EX5 in their reviews if they use headphones that are effected by the output impedance. I suspect more do than doesn't.

There is a stark effect depending on the impedance to colour the sound on some.
The one in this thread that complained said himself he used 11 Ohm output device prior and changed to this 0.4 Ohm one and didn't like it at all.

There could have been a stark difference in the frequency response depending on the headphones he used to test.
I was a little disappointed in my new DT 900 PRO X purchase paired with this EX5 and the link I provided explains quite a bit what might be happening. I'm missing lots and lots of the bass frequency range with this device 0.4 Ohm output if that line & response goes even lower at below 5Ohm as they tested it with.

Add a 2db or so low shelf at around 150 to 200 Hz and you'll get your bass back.

Not ideal to use amps to tune headphone response. Low output impedance means it adds no colour to anything.

 

[Deleted member 35357]

Add a 2db or so low shelf at around 150 to 200 Hz and you'll get your bass back.

Not ideal to use amps to tune headphone response. Low output impedance means it adds no colour to anything.

Exactly this!

I needed to use a Equalizer to get these headphones to sound decent on the EX5.
With a higher impedance DAC I could maybe have not needed to use a bass boost EQ at all and been fine. (unless I wanted more tuning)

How many users do use EQ with their headphone amplifiers? It's a extra step & you need to add it at the source with this one. Depending on source you don't have EQ as a option at all.

Currently I can only add EQ when using my PC as source. My 4K blu-ray player & TV can't do it at all unless I buy or add hardware into the chain to handle it.
I do have a old analogue 7-band equalizer to to fit into the chain before they reach my speakers as a option I have but it's not meant for a headphone output.

Shows just the importance of Equalizer options to actually "colour sound" into the proper directions if they don't pair well out of box.

 

[Jimbob54]

Exactly this!

I needed to use a Equalizer to get these headphones to sound decent on the EX5.
With a higher impedance DAC I could maybe have not needed to use a bass boost EQ at all and been fine. (unless I wanted more tuning)

How many users do use EQ with their headphone amplifiers? It's a extra step & you need to add it at the source with this one. Depending on source you don't have EQ as a option at all.

Currently I can only add EQ when using my PC as source. My 4K blu-ray player & TV can't do it at all unless I buy or add hardware into the chain to handle it.
I do have a old analogue 7-band equalizer to to fit into the chain before they reach my speakers as a option I have but it's not meant for a headphone output.

Shows just the importance of Equalizer options to actually "colour sound" into the proper directions if they don't pair well out of box.

The fault is the headphone's not the ex5 though. How they sound on the ex5 is how they sound. It is on the higher impedance amp that they have the boosted bass.

 

[Deleted member 35357]

The fault is the headphone's not the ex5 though. How they sound on the ex5 is how they sound. It is on the higher impedance amp that they have the boosted bass.

But people don't blame their headphones. They blame the DAC. Haven't you seen all the talk about DAC's in general around the place where they stick the blame for this change in behaviour.
They always blame the DAC's not their speakers/headphones. Going around and changing them out chasing that "sound".
The impedance is working as a "passive filter" to colour their sound but none think it's really what is happening. That it's the impedance response of their headphones that varies on the output impedance of the source, and the output impedance of DACs are different, giving varied EQ filters for your headphones if they are sensitive to it.

There you have the "DAC's sound different" attitude that is so widespread all around the place. They use sensitive headphones that vary their frequency response depending of the output impedance of the DAC they change out looking for the "best one" while they all they should have needed to do is use some EQ filter to mimic the impedance change.

 

[Jimbob54]

But people don't blame their headphones. They blame the DAC. Haven't you seen all the talk about DAC's in general around the place where they stick the blame for this change in behaviour.
They always blame the DAC's not their speakers/headphones. Going around and changing them out chasing that "sound".
The impedance is working as a "passive filter" to colour their sound but none think it's really what is happening. That it's the impedance response of their headphones that varies on the output impedance of the source, and the output impedance of DACs are different, giving varied EQ filters for your headphones if they are sensitive to it.

There you have the "DAC's sound different" attitude that is so widespread all around the place. They use sensitive headphones that vary their frequency response depending of the output impedance of the DAC they change out looking for the "best one" while they all they should have needed to do is use some EQ filter to mimic the impedance change.

You mean amp, not dac, don't you? Although I accept in many cases they are in the same box.

 

[Deleted member 35357]

You mean amp, not dac, don't you? Although I accept in many cases they are in the same box.

Many do call their headphone Amp's just "DAC" in most situations when they speak of their headphone output sources, in this case "amps".
So correct term would be the headphone output (amplification) ports with higher output impedance are the source of "coloured sound" when talking about "DAC's adding flavour" to their headphones.
Sensitive headphones when paired with high output impedance amp get coloured sound with the variance of output impedance and why DAC's sound different in the layman terminology of why people are so sensitive about it.

With the coloured sound possible with higher impedance. Which impedance was the "reference" impedance when designing each and every headphone and their correct frequency response?
What equipment was the design paired with?
A low >0.5 Ohm one or a ~10 Ohm or a higher like 75+ Ohm output etc.

So when people compare their headphones & Amp's they need to be aware of the impedance issue. The possibility it can colour the sound of their headphones and have it in mind when they make comparisons & assumptions.
Not all headphones are as sensitive as another. But we have already seen it's quite possible to have a 2 dB range difference for a large part of the frequency range.
That is a audible change of character!

We have basically a passive EQ filter in effect with the variance of output impedance from DAC's headphone amplifiers. Which does have and effect on sound. And why people go on and on about liking one Amp(DAC) over the other paired with their specific set of headphones. Adding warmth or being cold or whatnot descriptor they want to talk about to describe the difference in output.

To be fair the ideal way would be to standardize the lowest possible impedance across the range as the reference but that might not work out. To many players around wanting their own thing.
Variable impedance "setting" as the next new thing to have to possibility to mix & match to your liking what kind of coloured sound you like paired with your headphones, could be a solution but just having EQ settings more widespread would be ideal in the length.
Most people don't know how to adjust EQ other than to taste rather than correcting faults.

Impedance matching your DAC headphone amp outputs would be necessary when doing a direct to direct comparison for the performance of a headphone amp.
Many might like the added colour with the Bass frequency boost with higher impedance if other headphones react the same or similar to the DT 900 PRO X.
Some might not like it and want the less coloured low impedance output sound.

I've never seen talk about the impedance can have of an effect in general from Audio gear reviewers or such in-length at all. They just talk about the end result. Not the cause or source of the change in character. And why they make choices of recommending one DAC over another for your headphones output.
They seem inware of the possible change it has and or dismiss it as irrelevant when it's there in the data & measurements! The sound is measured as different, depending on the impedance!

 

[Blew]

I've never seen talk about the impedance can have of an effect in general from Audio gear reviewers or such in-length at all. They just talk about the end result. Not the cause or source of the change in character. And why they make choices of recommending one DAC over another for your headphones output.
They seem inware of the possible change it has and or dismiss it as irrelevant when it's there in the data & measurements! The sound is measured as different, depending on the impedance!

From my experience with Sennheiser HD660S with the SMSL M500, the Topping EX5 (which I bought then returned), and the Singxer SA-1 combined with a Topping E50, I agree that headphone amp output impedance does have a noticeable impact. It appears that the 660S are very sensitive to it. This review does mention this here:

As can be seen the tonal balance changes when connected to a higher output resistance amplifier. You get about 2.5dB more mid-bass. This can make the headphone sound a little more ‘muddy/fat’. Lower bass is not boosted. This headphone should be driven from low output resistance amplifiers. Distortion in the bass also increases so an output Resistance > 10Ω is not recommended.

The SA-1 has a high and low output impedance switch, which is 11.4 Ω and 1.4 Ω respectively. I use the low setting for the HD660S, and found that the high setting can cause distortion. The headphones sound very good on low to me, much better than they sounded with the M500, and far, far better than they sounded with the EX5.

So, I don't think the awful sound I heard coming from the EX5 is due to an output impedance mismatch between it and the HD660S. I still suspect it's something to do with the issue it has with transient notes.

 

[Veri]

I still suspect it's something to do with the issue it has with transient notes.

Issue with transient notes??

 

[raindance]

Issue with transient notes??

I guess it was designed for drone music only...

 

[Blew]

Issue with transient notes??

See my earlier posts in this thread:

Where's the censorship?

As an update of my own experience with the EX5 above, I ended up returning it because it sounded horrible. Yes it measures well but it's terrible at transient notes, so music sounds flat and lifeless and many notes sound like crackly garbage. I believe most of the problem is in the amp side of the unit, so I'm personally staying away from Topping's NFCA based amplifiers in future. I bought a Singxer SA-1 headphones amp and am currently using it with a Topping E50 DAC. This is far more expensive than the EX5 but well worth it in my opinion. The DAC is good but I'm currently testing various power options for it before deciding whether to buy another one. I'm looking at other DAC options in the meantime too.

I'd like to hear how the new Topping DX5 compares, but I'm not willing to risk buying one to find out.

And:

Yes I agree it would be great to be able to measure this aspect in the review tests. The issue is something to do with the transients of the frequencies from one to the other. The EX5 sounded like it was cutting off each musical note very abruptly, so it sounded very unnatural. It sounded crackly because it was like the note was being cut off prematurely, then there was a tiny period of silence before the next note was reproduced. It was most noticeable in cymbals and guitar strums, but also very noticeable in some electronic music I tested it with. The ASR tests don't factor this in, as they only test the accuracy of a series of static frequencies.

As I mentioned, this problem was extremely obvious to me from the first time I started listening to it. It's not something I had to switch back and forth to notice. It was what made me wonder if there was a fault with mine, as I hadn't seen anyone mention anything bad about it before in reviews or in the forums here. I then found this review which describes the issue better than I could:

Other issues that with it were that the sound is very "flat" and there is hardly any sound stage. I compared this to the SMSL M500 using headphones, and the Topping E50 that I tested with various Marantz and Yamaha amplifiers both with headphones and stereo speakers. In all cases I could definitely heard an obvious and stark difference between the way the M500 & E50 sounded compared to the EX5. The EX5 definitely did sound better when only used as a DAC (ie not using the headphones amp on it) but also definitely did not sound anywhere near as good as the E50 or M500 in any situation. I don't know what the science behind sound staging is but it would be great to be able to measure that too.

I should note that I mostly tested the EX5 with a pair of Sennheiser HD660S headphones, which I find are very resolving and unforgiving in a lot of ways. I did also test with a pair of HD599S, which are more forgiving but have a very different sound signature, but the issues were still very obvious on those too.


Yes I agree that we all have cognitive biases and nobody can claim to be completely objective. However, we need to be aware of those biases as much as possible in order to compensate for them. In this case though, the problem was so obvious and completely the opposite of my initial expectations that I can't put it down to bias alone.