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My speakers sound better than my headphones...

curiouspeter

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For a curious cat, what is the best way to find out how and why?

Here are some of the specifics...
  • Headphones: NAS (Roon Core) -> iMac (Roon Bridge) -> iFi NEO iDSD (DAC and Amp) -> Sennheiser HD660S
  • Speakers: NAS (Roon Core) -> Pi 4 (RoPieee) -> Gustard X16 (DAC) -> Teac AX-505 (Amp) -> PSB Alpha T20
  • Listening Material: Frédéric (Mazurkas, Nocturnes, Waltzes) - DSD64
To me, the strings of the harp sound more natural on the speakers. I have always thought those PSBs are the weakest link in my system.

I doubt a DAC can make much difference. Could it be that strings just sound better on speakers?

I cannot do a volume-matched test because the output devices are so different. Obviously, I cannot do a blind test because I can easily feel if I am wearing something on my head.

Actually, I usually have the volume set such that my headphones sound louder. In fact, I can hear more recording imperfections on my headphones. Very strange.
 

majingotan

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IMHO, you just prefer the tonality/timbre of your speakers. You can try to EQ the HD660S to simulate a diffuse field target curve (instead of Harman) to make your headphone's tonality closer to a speaker. In my case, my Andromeda IEM sounds better than my HS7 speakers subjectively (in ever aspect of subjective sound descriptions) except for natural crossfeed and soundstage, though HS7 speaker sounds much better than HD650 (No EQ) and K712 (No EQ) in every aspect of subjective sound description (tonality, timbre, details, imaging, etc.) in my subjective opinion
 

McFly

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Speakers cant be compared to headphones or vice versa imo. Completely different ballparks. Ive never heard a headphone that sounds like the soundstage is in front of me, I've always been well aware of the sound being right next to my ears. Speakers do a way better job of displaying a "stage" of musician's or a "live" sound if you like, headphones are way better for catching detail.
 
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curiouspeter

curiouspeter

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Good speakers should sound better than headphones, in every way. Wish I heard that differently, life would be so much easier.

Glad to find out my entry-level PSB Alpha T20s are actually quite good. I initially got them for movies. Then I caught the "audiophile" bug. I would probably get the Wharfedale Evo floor-standers if I had to buy speakers again.

Sad to find out I don't like headphones. Probably spent too much in this department already. I got the setup for WFH. However, I frequently prefer the single Sonos One behind me. The sound from the Sonos is not the best but I can spin around in my chair.
 

Soniclife

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Glad to find out my entry-level PSB Alpha T20s are actually quite good. I initially got them for movies. Then I caught the "audiophile" bug. I would probably get the Wharfedale Evo floor-standers if I had to buy speakers again.

Sad to find out I don't like headphones. Probably spent too much in this department already. I got the setup for WFH. However, I frequently prefer the single Sonos One behind me. The sound from the Sonos is not the best but I can spin around in my chair.
Have you tried EQ with the headphones? The missing bass uncorrected was a big turn off to me, just adding the bass transforms them. I was being a bit tongue in check above, I've had days when speakers weren't doing it for me and I've swapped to headphones, and stuck with them for the evening.
 

oursmagenta

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I've tried a ton of headphones over the last few years. Absolutely none of them gave me the enjoyment of a pair of good floorstandings at 90-100dB from LP, with holographic soundstage, along with bass shaking my chest.

Apple and Oranges...

I totally relate to your comment. But holographic soundstage, no less ? (joking, I understand your point)
Back to the point, I totally agree with you that to get the real experience, you need the sound to be loud for both your ears and body, plus off course the soundstage.

Now for the details, it seems room-related to me. I guess a fully treated room should give you the same amount of details than a good pair of headphones. Maybe too long decay times entirely kills the ability of the ear+brain to extract the details.
 

CrankyRat

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I've tried a ton of headphones over the last few years. Absolutely none of them gave me the enjoyment of a pair of good floorstandings at 90-100dB from LP, with holographic soundstage, along with bass shaking my chest.

Apple and Oranges...

90-100dB? Well enjoy why you can, won't be for long.

I love my Genelec speakers but they are not more enjoyable or better than my IEMs or Headphones. I freely move between them all. Sometimes I like one or the other based on mood or convenience but more often just because they are different.

Amongst my friends who, oddly, prefer speakers all the time, the one thing they have in common is that they grew up on speakers (and, heh, have crappy headphones IMO). They got fixated on that kind of sound and are stuck. I feel sorry for them since there is a lot of magic in IEMs and headphones if you are open to them.
 
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BillG

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Because I'm usually listening to speakers near field, I don't find the imaging of my IEMs to be too far away from that experience. I run some minor crossfeed filtering with them usually, by the way.

As for bass, my IEMs dig deeper into the subbass region than my speakers. While the sensation when listening with the former is mostly felt in my head, it has the effect of seemingly resonating down my throat and into my upper chest as well; I find it to be quite pleasant. Although, admittedly, it doesn't have the impact of a good club sound system where I can feel my intestines rumble, it gets me close enough to the experience to be satisfying.

So, no... my speakers don't sound better than my IEMs. They all sound equally good to me, but each with just a slightly different listening experience... :cool:
 
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oursmagenta

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90-100dB? Well enjoy why you can, won't be for long.

I love my Genelec speakers but they are not more enjoyable or better than my IEMs or Headphones. I freely move between them all. Sometimes I like one or the other based on mood or convenience but more often just because they are different.

Amongst my friends who, oddly, prefer speakers all the time, the one thing they have in common is that they grew up on speakers (and, heh, have crappy headphones IMO). They got fixated on that kind of sound and are stuck. I feel sorry for them since there is a lot of magic in IEMs and headphones if you are open to them.

Oh that one got overlooked (the 90-100db), I just saw one post regarding this topic, and yeah 90-100db is actually very loud ...
 

VintageFlanker

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90-100dB? Well enjoy why you can, won't be for long.
Oh that one got overlooked (the 90-100db), I just saw one post regarding this topic, and yeah 90-100db is actually very loud ...
(up to) 100dB, for highest dynamic pic under musical condition, is actually quite realistic;). Many concerts would be much louder than that and you won't turn deaf anyway.
If it was one tone, full scale, at 100dB, il would be of course unlistenable.

Keep in mind that it's not for everyday Listening, obviously. I'm able to enjoy this kind of experience only during rare weekends when nobody's at home.:cool:
 
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oursmagenta

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(up to) 100dB for highest dynamic pic under musical condition, is actually quite realistic;). Many concerts would be much louder than that and you won't turn deaf anyway.
If it was one tone, full scale, at 100dB, il would be of course unlistenable.

Keep in mind that it's not for everyday Listening, obviously. I'm able to enjoy this kind of experience only during rare weekends when nobody's at home.
:cool:
Got it !
 
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Frank Dernie

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Amongst my friends who, oddly, prefer speakers all the time, the one thing they have in common is that they grew up on speakers (and, heh, have crappy headphones IMO). They got fixated on that kind of sound and are stuck. I feel sorry for them since there is a lot of magic in IEMs and headphones if you are open to them.
I prefer speakers because it is the natural way to listen. Having something stuck in, or clamped over, your ears is not in any way natural.
It is cheap and convenient though, and stops you annoying other people so I strongly approve of IEMs and headphones.
Personally I rarely listen on headphones at home but they are great for travelling.
To me, the strings of the harp sound more natural on the speakers.
Your speakers and headphones will have a different frequency response. The frequency response strongly influences timbre. It seems you prefer the effect of your speaker's effect on timbre to that of your 'phones.
There is no reason to believe speakers are inherently superior to headphones for timbre, that will vary from model to model.
I much prefer the natural experience of listening to music without something stuck to my head though.
 

Robin L

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I guess this really boils down to "Different Strokes". The audio gear I've had access to has roiled into so many different configurations, I've forgotten much of what I've owned. But the best loudspeaker based systems I've owned were not as satisfying as the best headphone based systems that I'm owning, right now. My problem, in large part, was never having access to a room of proper proportions and size for loudspeakers. At the last house I lived in, there were 5 different sound systems at the same time, the best one in the garage [oddly, the one room with the most appropriate dimensions---it got the 5.1 system]. None in the house could be positioned in the right spot [there usually wasn't one] but we did have music everywhere.

What I really like about headphones is the clarity and precision of the sounds. I've recorded [set up microphones, set levels, pressed record] enough music to know the "sounds" of popular microphones, like the Shure SM58 or the Neumann KM 84, and to know that what I'm hearing is a mix of various microphones, often in different time domains, no matter the style of music. This doesn't bother me, I'm more interested in the notes, I want to hear the countermelody as clearly as the main line, I want to sit next to the musicians. My "Absolute Sound" is next to the autoharp and across from a fiddler with all the musicians in a circle, facing each other.

I do get the attraction of stereo replay in an appropriate venue. My most memorable was seeing/hearing "2001" when it first came out. There was a "Cinerama" theater in Fresno, the audio system in that theater was majestic, my first taste of "High-End Audio". It was probably the first time I "heard" the low C from an organ, a sensation more felt than heard. That was something I never get from headphones, BTW: I can hear the low C on headphones but I can't feel it. I started looking for recordings of Also Sprach Zarathrustra soon thereafter [the reissue of the first Reiner/Chicago on Victrola managed to filter out that low note].

I had the Stax Lambda Pro Earspeakers for many years. There's big advantages to the headphones I've got now. The 'cleanest' are the Drop 6XX, connected to the Topping E/L 30 combo, which has, so far, not blown up. That system comes close to the detail level of the Stax, with a smoother top end and much better bass. Among the advantages of the other two phones is that neither one really requires EQ to produce bass. The AKG K371 has nearly the clarity of the Drop 'phones, requires very little power to produce lots of bass and is capable of plenty of volume. The Philips X2 HR 'phones are odd birds. Can't say they're all that "accurate", but the stereo quality is better than the other two headphones, there is more sense of the music playing outside of one's head. Seems to like Jazz: the aspect of the X2 HR's sound that's a bit too bright and harsh manages to make brass more 'real' and present. On the other hand, not so good for pianos. Attached to a DAP and playing John Coltrane while I'm walking in the woods? Fantastic.

There was a Steinway B in my living room, about 30 years ago. Recorded piano doesn't sound like the real thing to me on anything. However, I do like the sound of piano recordings. I've recorded some fine instruments, Steinways and Yamahas, a Baldwin or two. The London/Decca recordings of piano use a technique of situating a pair of omnis, about 20" apart, on a stand with the microphones slightly above the tail of the piano and aimed at the hammers. One distances the microphone stand from the piano tail to taste. Provides more of what an audience would hear in a concert hall but with a lot more focus.
 

richard12511

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90-100dB? Well enjoy why you can, won't be for long.

I love my Genelec speakers but they are not more enjoyable or better than my IEMs or Headphones. I freely move between them all. Sometimes I like one or the other based on mood or convenience but more often just because they are different.

Amongst my friends who, oddly, prefer speakers all the time, the one thing they have in common is that they grew up on speakers (and, heh, have crappy headphones IMO). They got fixated on that kind of sound and are stuck. I feel sorry for them since there is a lot of magic in IEMs and headphones if you are open to them.

Given the average spectrum of music, compounded with the usual 10dB room tilt, 90-100dB C weighted peaks won't damage your ears for reasonable length listening sessions.
 

MattHooper

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I prefer speakers but also I don't use headphones these days because I have a noise-sensitive issue (including Tinnitus) that I have to protect, and headphones tend to exacerbate the issue (one reason being it's harder to judge how loud I've turned them up vs a speaker).

That said, my father had both a great speaker system and excellent headphones and I remember many times late at night getting lost in music on headphones. (In fact when I think of losing myself in the world of Rush, it was often through headphones).
 

CrankyRat

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Given the average spectrum of music, compounded with the usual 10dB room tilt, 90-100dB C weighted peaks won't damage your ears for reasonable length listening sessions.

Well, that's because they don't live with my wife! If I play anything on my speakers above 80dB she will be yelling at me at 120dB. I'm one audiologist appointment away from a hearing aid.
 

Soniclife

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one reason being it's harder to judge how loud I've turned them up vs a speaker
I'm wary of this to, with open backed phones you can put the mic on the outside of the cup whilst listening for a good idea, it won't be perfect, but you can at least have a metric to track with.
 

CrankyRat

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I prefer speakers because it is the natural way to listen. Having something stuck in, or clamped over, your ears is not in any way natural.

Homo sapiens, the first modern humans, evolved from their early hominid predecessors between 200,000 and 300,000 years ago.
Alexander Graham Bell patented his first electric loudspeaker (capable of reproducing intelligible speech) as part of his telephone in 1876.

There is nothing "natural" about listening to speakers or headphones. Natural is a sloppy meaningless word in this context. What we should say is "comfortable" or "what I'm used to".
 
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