My speaker woofers barely move despite deep bass and sufficient volume – why?

[renoxd]

Hi, after watching many videos - for example this one showing how the woofers of the Diva 5 visibly move at the right volume and track, I don’t understand why this is not happening in my case. My woofers barely move at all

Audio show video of Diva 5 -

You can clearly see the woofers moving like crazy when powered by a Yamaha R-N1000A integrated amplifier.

In my setup I’m using:
WiiM Ultra → (USB) Topping DX7 Pro → (XLR) Fosi V3 Mono → Indiana Line Diva 6 speakers

No matter what I play, even if with quite high volume, the woofers barely move. The bass is clearly audible and extends, but visually the drivers hardly move. What could be the reason?
My video with Diva 6 (same song) -

I even set in Wiim EQ 40-60Hz +7dB, and cone is still not moving

 

[Marc v E]

You have the following woofers per speaker: 3 x 150 mm.
The diva 5 has 1 woofer: 1 x 150 mm

That is 4x 150 mm extra woofer area. More area means less movement is necessary to achieve the same sound pressure.

 

[Roland68]

Hi, after watching many videos - for example this one showing how the woofers of the Diva 5 visibly move at the right volume and track, I don’t understand why this is not happening in my case. My woofers barely move at all

Audio show video of Diva 5 -

You can clearly see the woofers moving like crazy when powered by a Yamaha R-N1000A integrated amplifier.

In my setup I’m using:
WiiM Ultra → (USB) Topping DX7 Pro → (XLR) Fosi V3 Mono → Indiana Line Diva 6 speakers

No matter what I play, even if with quite high volume, the woofers barely move. The bass is clearly audible and extends, but visually the drivers hardly move. What could be the reason?
My video with Diva 6 (same song) -

I even set in Wiim EQ 40-60Hz +7dB, and cone is still not moving

First of all, the Diva6 has more bass drivers, which significantly reduces movement at the same volume.

Is the demonstration room larger, taller, and less damped than your room?

Could it be that the system in the demonstration was operated at a much higher power level, perhaps even 4 or 8 times more power than you'd use at home?

Add to that the difference in sensitivity; the Diva5 requires about 50% more power than your Diva6 for the same volume.

 

[renoxd]

That is 4x 150 mm extra woofer area. More area means less movement is necessary to achieve the same sound pressure.

that make sense

Is the demonstration room larger, taller, and less damped than your room?

cant tell, but I would say similar. Mine is around 25m2

Could it be that the system in the demonstration was operated at a much higher power level, perhaps even 4 or 8 times more power than you'd use at home?

no way

Add to that the difference in sensitivity; the Diva5 requires about 50% more power than your Diva6 for the same volume

the tests shows that provided by Indiana line sensitivity is not accurate. Its more like 88dB

INDIANA LINE Diva 6

Diva 6 to jedna z kilku nowych, a obecnie najlepsza konstrukcja Indiana Line. Producent jest więc z niej szczególnie dumny, i ma ku temu powody.

audio.com.pl

"Balanced, delicately contoured response, low extension (-6 dB at 38 Hz). Sensitivity 88 dB, nominal impedance 4 Ω.",
"Sensitivity is 88 dB (the manufacturer claims 93 dB, and that's an efficiency figure; that's a "slight" exaggeration), and nominal impedance is 4 ohms (based on a 4-ohm minimum at 150 Hz). The company's nominal impedance information is in a previously unknown format."

With previous Heco 700 Aurora my cones were also not rly moving. I tho that it could be because of my Topping DX7 Pro that may have some sub filters, but its not possible right?

 

[amper42]

Excellent woofers don't usually move a lot visually to do a great job with most musical content.
Typically, reproducing a sound in the 30Hz range or lower is required to see increased visual speaker movement but even then it doesn't necessarily indicate a superior speaker design.

If they sound great to you, that's enough.

 

[Ropeburn]

The "more woofers" thing is, within the design constraints of a modern, narrow speaker, an established method of reducing distortion and getting more volume capability both. The power (both electric and resulting acoustic) is divided between them, so each one will work within optimal voice coil and cone movement ranges - not moving a lot - in a larger volume range than a single one could. These are general tendencies dictated by physics, of course drivers will vary a lot in detail and there's other factors influencing this, like size and especially cone mass in relation to voice coil size/strength and other things.

If your cones aren't moving much but you still get loud and deep bass, that's the sign of a good design. The less movement, the less distortion, because the drivers are still far from their maximum capabilities.

It's also good for that "fast and precise bass" impression: a barely moving driver takes very little time to stop again after the signal ends (like short, loud bass note), naturally, compared to a much more moving one. The latter will get into "bloated and muddy" territory more quickly, simply because more movement takes longer to stop. This is also the reason why big PA woofers typically have a rather "hard" suspension: to compensate for their high cone mass due to size. You still want fast response so your bass doesn't "blur and smear". With slim home speakers with small drivers you don't need that, the moving mass is much lower.

Finally, such videos have to be viewed with caution. A strongly moving driver is good for "badarse demonstration" for advertising. "Look at how impressive our drivers are! They can pump like crazy!" - while in reality it could just as well be too much subbass content the drivers can't even do properly, but are struggling hard to. Not a good sign. A driver approaching its limits will inevitably compress and distort.

 

[TurtlePaul]

Often times exaggerated woofer movement is indicative of speakers playing below their port tuning frequency. While visually exciting, this is very bad for fidelity.

 

[tineared]

Did I miss the post where the OP complains about how his system sounds?
This all seems to be much ado about nothing...

 

[Gibsonian]

3 woofers would move 1/3 the distance of a single woofer to produce same volume at same frequency ( drivers same diameter)

 

[TurtlePaul]

Also, our hearing is logarithmic while woofer movement is linear. If you are playing 10 dB lower than the example video, then the sound will be just loud instead of very loud, but the reduction in woofer movement is dramatic. Many audio shows have been measured to have rooms playing somewhat above 90 dB.

 

[Ropeburn]

Did I miss the post where the OP complains about how his system sounds?
This all seems to be much ado about nothing...

It's simply a little discussion about cone movement and how and why it differs between speaker models. Exactly what OP asked about. What's the problem? What's the "ado" here?

 

[tineared]

It's simply a little discussion about cone movement and how and why it differs between speaker models. Exactly what OP asked about. What's the problem? What's the "ado" here?

@Marc v E correctly addressed the Op's concern in the first reply...

 

[Ropeburn]

@Marc v E correctly addressed the Op's concern in the first reply...

So we should stop talking about it after first reply? You must be new to forums. Let us have our fun nerding out over details, will you.

 

[Roland68]

that make sense


cant tell, but I would say similar. Mine is around 25m2


no way


the tests shows that provided by Indiana line sensitivity is not accurate. Its more like 88dB

INDIANA LINE Diva 6

Diva 6 to jedna z kilku nowych, a obecnie najlepsza konstrukcja Indiana Line. Producent jest więc z niej szczególnie dumny, i ma ku temu powody.

audio.com.pl

"Balanced, delicately contoured response, low extension (-6 dB at 38 Hz). Sensitivity 88 dB, nominal impedance 4 Ω.",
"Sensitivity is 88 dB (the manufacturer claims 93 dB, and that's an efficiency figure; that's a "slight" exaggeration), and nominal impedance is 4 ohms (based on a 4-ohm minimum at 150 Hz). The company's nominal impedance information is in a previously unknown format."

With previous Heco 700 Aurora my cones were also not rly moving. I tho that it could be because of my Topping DX7 Pro that may have some sub filters, but its not possible right?

First, please download a dB app to your smartphone and measure the approximate volume at a distance of about 3 meters from the speaker.
Humans are extremely unreliable when it comes to judging volume and temperature, no matter how experienced they are.

I also have the Aurora 700, so I can make a judgment. If the drivers are visibly moving, then my neighbors can easily hear my music. But I've only seen them move like that with extremely bass-heavy films, like in your video. But then my neighbors are listening at more than normal room volume.

First of all, you need ten times the power to double the volume.
The listening room at the dealer/show is likely significantly larger. How far back is the room, or is it open? You can already see from the side that it goes around a corner.
At a demonstration, the sound is significantly louder than at home, even if it doesn't seem that way.
At home, you're usually around 50-60 dB, rarely 65 dB. Anything above that quickly leads to problems with the neighbors.
At a dealer's, you're easily talking about 75-85 dB.

And that means we're not just talking about 4 or 8 times the power, but 10 times or more.
Even the single 16-inch woofer in my Elac DBR62s doesn't move like that in a heavily damped room, even when it gets uncomfortably loud.

The difference between the Diva5 and 6 will still be at least 3 dB, which requires roughly twice the power.

Let's summarize:

- The Diva6 has significantly more cone area
- Presumably a much better and deeper tuning and resonance frequency
- At least 3dB better efficiency
Just a rough calculation, I get a maximum of 1/3 of the excursion for the Diva6 at the same volume, or even less.

There's an additional problem with the Diva5. Due to its shallower tuning/higher resonance frequency and lower efficiency, the woofers also have more excursion in the lower frequency range, since the bass drivers have practically no resistance at low frequencies.
This is probably the biggest factor in the movement seen in the video with the Diva5.

The bass in the song seems to go quite low.

 

[tineared]

So we should stop talking about it after first reply? You must be new to forums. Let us have our fun nerding out over details, will you.

What was I thinking?

 

[JSmith]

no way

Don't be so sure... to perceive a "doubling of sound", the power must increase tenfold, not just double.

Doubling the power out of an amplifier results in a 3dB increase in SPL, a slight increase in loudness, not a doubling of volume.


JSmith

 

[Ropeburn]

With previous Heco 700 Aurora my cones were also not rly moving. I tho that it could be because of my Topping DX7 Pro that may have some sub filters, but its not possible right?

I have these too, and the cones aren't moving much because

1) there's two sharing the load, plus the same size mid driver actually playing quite low with a shallow highpass, and

2) the whole speaker and bassreflex path isn't tuned all too low. The ports are actually tuned to reduce load around driver resonance frequency, rather than extra subbass output at all costs. A reasonable decision that works very well and makes the speaker do serious volume at low distortion where it counts, the "fat" 40-50Hz range, because exactly there is where the ports keep drivers in their comfortable stroke range up to ludicrous volume, relative to speaker and driver sizes. Also where most of the energy is in powerful music. Coincidence? I think not. Almost as if they know what they're doing. Heh.

Their higher end models use the same principle, and they're famous for super low distortion north of 110dB. It works!

 

[ZolaIII]

You have the following woofers per speaker: 3 x 150 mm.
The diva 5 has 1 woofer: 1 x 150 mm

That is 4x 150 mm extra woofer area. More area means less movement is necessary to achieve the same sound pressure.

Let's elaborate on concrete example already given.
4x cone area mm²=+6 dB/W or 4xW.
As already pointed out more the woffer stays above it's Fs better as it will stay in its Xmas linear limit (not touching non linear excursion limit) and more to time domain. Same things apply and too big stiff ones (sub's). Good port design is direct to driver Fs (as part counter to it +6 dB same thing goes for good stands design) and cut digitaly under it but you won't find such in HI-FI but mostly PA and DIY and more for max SPL then linearity or distortion. Now when you cut above woffer Fs port will also lose most of it's output and you plug them or not you will get to somewhat in between closed/ported enclosure order slope (18 dB) to where you cut (even if you use higher order low self filter to do it).

 

[Roland68]

I have these too, and the cones aren't moving much because

1) there's two sharing the load, plus the same size mid driver actually playing quite low with a shallow highpass, and

2) the whole speaker and bassreflex path isn't tuned all too low. The ports are actually tuned to reduce load around driver resonance frequency, rather than extra subbass output at all costs. A reasonable decision that works very well and makes the speaker do serious volume at low distortion where it counts, the "fat" 40-50Hz range.

I would never dream of complaining about the bass of the Aurora 700, especially not about it being too weak.
On my A30a, out of consideration for the neighbors, I often have the subwoofer set to 70Hz (without a subwoofer). Even then, I don't miss anything, and I still can't turn it up too loud.

 

[renoxd]

Did I miss the post where the OP complains about how his system sounds?
This all seems to be much ado about nothing...

It's simply a little discussion about cone movement and how and why it differs between speaker models. Exactly what OP asked about. What's the problem? What's the "ado" here?

This. I was just wondering. I though that this is a good place to ask such questions (Audio Newbie/Beginner Technical Forum)

And that means we're not just talking about 4 or 8 times the power, but 10 times or more.

Don't be so sure... to perceive a "doubling of sound", the power must increase tenfold, not just double

I read wrognly the question. Reading quickly (my bad), I interpreted it as 4x-8 times louder, not 4 to 8 times more powerful. It could indeed be possible.


Ok , thank you all for your answers!