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My Problem With Inexpensive Electronics

Wombat

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My 4.2 litre 6cyl. Australian made Ford Falcon AU2 is 18 years old. An ex-lease car purchased at 12 months old with 57000 km(35400 miles) up for less than 1/2 price.

It now has clocked 156000km(97000 miles).

Except for routine changes for oil filters, plugs, leads, wipers, batteries, exhaust system(after my use became mainly short trips) and, recently, a new coil pack(age insurance) it has only had new front ball joints and one turn indicator bulb.. The brakes keep keeping on.

No electronics problems touch wood. I do remember that some vehicles had a reputation for problems with their ecu.

I had a dual fuel LPG conversion done at purchase and this has been trouble free. Best car I have owned wrt reliability and maintenance cost.

Aussie mfrs were small by international standards but made reliable cars that were well suited to local needs.

Our government shut down local car manufacturing as part of a free trade deal with South Korea. Along with most Aussies I was not pleased.
 
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restorer-john

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My 4.2 litre 6cyl. Australian made Ford Falcon AU2 is 18 years old. An ex-lease car purchased at 12 months old with 57000 km(35400 miles) up for less than 1/2 price.

It now has clocked 156000km(97000 miles).

The first rep vehicle I had in 2002 was an AU (2?) with dual fuel too. Station wagon and it pulled like a absolute train up the Toowoomba ranges like a V8. More grunt on gas if you ask me. So handy and the switchover was seamless (a little hic). Lease ended in 2003/4 and it had 187,000 on it running all over Qld and into Northern NSW. Excellent car but rough around the edges. But tough as nails and can be fixed in any country town- not that I needed to.

Then we went to Nissan T-30 X-Trails. Had two of them (4 years each) and did 189,000 in one and about 150,000 on the other three years in. Nothing needed on them either except a radiator flush (particle buildup) on the first one and normal service/tyres etc. I loved them so much, I tracked down a low mileage T-30 series 2 from Mt Isa about 8 years ago and I still drive it as our second car. Apart from one thermo fan dying and the ventilation fan resistor, it's trouble free and runs like new.
 

valerianf

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It is sure that reliability of cheap electronic devices will be low if not very low. In the past Phlips brand was focuses on that market share. But their products were cheap to buy.
Nowaday when I read the feedback from Arcam, Anthem or Nad users, I am afraid by their products design.
Because they are not cheap to buy and they are unreliable.
My guess is that I will wait for the new Pioneer/Onkyo.
They are cheaper and reliability may not be worst.

For the record I never bought Siemens, Miele or Bosch dishwashers.
 

brimble

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Like apparently everyone else here I've owned old dual-fuel Australian Ford Falcons and seen them happily do hundreds of thousands of kilometres :)

Currently on a 2003 Mazda. I can't imagine wanting anything made after about 2005, with the electronics tied into all the main automotive systems.
 

David Harper

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don't have to spend much to get engineering, reliability, build quality, and made in the USA.
Schiit Vidar amp features all four for about $700.
 

David Harper

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If they put a well measuring DAC and balanced headphone amp in their Freya+ I’d be all over it. They don’t even need to change their name.

Martin
I own a Schiit Vidar amp. I'm not ashamed of the name at all. Maybe I don't take words that seriously.
 

mhardy6647

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The precise reason that most of my audio equipment is from 1977-1996 and still going very well (some after some refurbishment). See ASR's review of my NAD 2200 as proof of some vintage viability.
some of the stuff here is (considerably) older than that -- parts are still readily available (with occasional exceptions) and repairs/rehabilitation are/is usually deligtfully straightforward.

Here's an example: approximately as old as I am, and in considerably better working order. :)

P1020749 by Mark Hardy, on Flickr

Just felt like lobbing that grenade in here, apropos of nothing! ;) :cool:
 

David Harper

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Too much computer bullshit in modern appliances. Back in the day appliances were just mostly mechanical. They lasted forever.
Computers may be the worst thing that ever happened. They're making us all dumber. People walk around looking at their phone all day.
examples;
We don't remember phone #'s anymore because they're all on the speed-dial list
We don't know how we're getting to where we're driving because we're using GPS instead of looking at a map.
We don't do math anymore the calculator does it for us.
 
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FrantzM

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I've seen such quasi-Luddites statements and positions, my entire life.. In the 70's cars made in the 50's were the best ... Same in the 80's for cars made in the 60's ...
Thing is: Modern cars last longer with less maintenance. You no longer have to measure the gap in spark plugs or distributors and tuning carburetors with multiple screws ... You just drive the cars for hundred of thousands of miles... Cars go over 100,000 miles with not an issue or people even thinking about them
Back in the days, one had to bias audio tubes ... Now we just ...
People talk about their computers being so bad, white typing on a computer connected to the evil Internet, to present their anti-technology rants to an Internet forum (you can see the Internet in everything ...) whose members are spread throughout the World... Care to try to do the same with a typewriter and sending your thoughts on a paper via sail boats? ... OK I'll grant you a steamboat for faster delivery of the messages.:p
It is a matter of balance, Things should be well build but we know that many technologies are consumable artifacts that are to be at least recycled.. It has always been so. Different scale today, perhaps something that needs to be curtailed but , let's not get carried away.
 

Helicopter

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Too much computer bullshit in modern appliances. Back in the day appliances were just mostly mechanical. They lasted forever.
Computers may be the worst thing that ever happened. They're making us all dumber. People walk around looking at their phone all day.
examples;
We don't remember phone #'s anymore because they're all on the speed-dial list
We don't know how we're getting to where we're driving because we're using GPS instead of looking at a map.
We don't do math anymore the calculator does it for us.

You could say the same thing about literacy as computers. Intelligent illiterate adults have remarkable memory. I once worked with a couple functionally illiterate mechanics who had memorized hundreds of torque specs. Literally everything on the top decks of two models of medium lift helicopter.
 

maverickronin

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Too much computer bullshit in modern appliances. Back in the day appliances were just mostly mechanical. They lasted forever.
Computers may be the worst thing that ever happened. They're making us all dumber. People walk around looking at their phone all day.
examples;
We don't remember phone #'s anymore because they're all on the speed-dial list
We don't know how we're getting to where we're driving because we're using GPS instead of looking at a map.
We don't do math anymore the calculator does it for us.

You could say the same thing about literacy as computers. Intelligent illiterate adults have remarkable memory. I once worked with a couple functionally illiterate mechanics who had memorized hundreds of torque specs. Literally everything on the top decks of two models of medium lift helicopter.

Definitely this.

There is a myth were the other Egyptian gods criticize Thoth for inventing writing because then the humans will never be able to remember anything any longer.

I do agree about product longevity though. Too many irreplaceable parts and microcontrollers with secret firmware.
 
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Tks

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Too much computer bullshit in modern appliances. Back in the day appliances were just mostly mechanical. They lasted forever.

While I can attest to the stupidity of some of the IoT implementations in the most unnecessary things, that doesn't quite have much baring on "things lasting long". In fact, electronic components which are now heavily commoditized, and virutally solid-state compared to mechanically functioning items, actually can be made to last longer than said mechanical devices. Mechanical devices have more points of failure (case and point being something like hard drives versus solid state drives). Less moving parts, less failure prone.

Also, the failure rates of many mainstream cost-optimized devices is one-part the fault of demand (tell me how many people you know who would be willing to buy an iPhone that lasts 10+ years, but also willing to pay something like $5,000 for it). Considerations for items lasting long are almost completely ignored in the mainstream sector of products. The second problem, is you have planned and intrinsic obsolescence (after the Industrial Revolution, economists along with businesses realized, supply has forever planted itself above demand, and we can never go back). In order for a company to sell something like a $500 computer-like phone (in functionality), and also turn a profit while competing with other companies, they need to control exactly how long a device lasts (before, this entailed using inferior materials that were known to degrade at a certain point, requiring users to repair the device at the company's repair centers). This level of earning wasn't enough, so they started making devices that would fail catastrophically and need complete replacement. Now you have software and firmware driven expiration dates further compounding the issue (Apple being one such company that all others can only dream of, with their near-complete grip over the complete operation from distribution, to manufacturing, to hardware and software controls).

People can make devices last longer than any of the bygone era devices we look back with nostalgia thinking they were devices that can never be surpassed in terms of durability. Our material sciences and engineering prowess has exploded that would make surpassing those older devices trivial. It's simply that in order to be a manufacturer these days, you have to compete on a global level, and if you're competing on a global level, you have to implement cost-savings for fiduciary responsibility of shareholders. And if a single company that's competing in the same industry as you does something like create devices that purposefully fail at a certain date to make people buy newer devices - you either must follow suit, or you'll be surpassed.

Computers may be the worst thing that ever happened. They're making us all dumber. People walk around looking at their phone all day.

I don't get it.. Access to information in a packaged and quickly absorbable form is precisely the sort of psychological predisposition we have as living sentient creatures.

Silly notion, it would be like cavemen complaining about hammers being the worst thing ever, because using rocks required more skill to master nailing nails to a board. Computers have shifted learning priorities, letting people focus on things that they want to persue. It would be like saying "computers made us dumber, we should have stayed in jungles and plains, at least there we had things that made us smarter, like learning how to make a fire, or hunt animals ourselves, instead of being in air conditioned homes that make us lazier and fatter". Looking at a phone all day seems like something a normal person would do if given the option. People on public transportation for example today would be odd if they found more pleasure in staring at the walls of the vehicle compared to someone entertaining themselves with a phone, or getting some work done/prepared.

I'm really not sure how people are getting dumber looking at their phones (if anything, they're getting smarter). Or do you posit that walking around looking at the sky and road to work every single day is more productive and mentally constructive?


We don't remember phone #'s anymore because they're all on the speed-dial list

Yeah, who would naturally care to recall phone numbers of people when there are speed dial lists? It would be like saying "We don't remember how to cook food consistently anymore, it's all measured and written as notes on a piece of paper instead now". How does that make it a bad thing exactly? Because our memory isn't being trained or something? Who would want to train their memory with phone numbers anyway? What value is there to this?

We don't know how we're getting to where we're driving because we're using GPS instead of looking at a map.

This example is even worse. I fail completely to see what the problem is here? You'd have to be insane not to prefer GPS (better in virtually every single way when available). GPS makes use of maps, and if anything with the way GPS functions now, it's far more up-to-date than any printed map could be..

We don't do math anymore the calculator does it for us.

Why would anyone waste their time trying to manually long-divide things for example? Again, I'm failing to see what exactly is the problem here. I'd understand if you said, we should at least know how to do certain math operations in case we don't have calculators in a certain area. But to not use calculators when they're at your disposal, this seems like an insane notion especially concerning more complex operations that require half a page or more to solve for..

Or were you talking about children that don't know how to multiply single digit integers? Because if it's that, I don't know what school would allow calculators for such basic required knowledge.

I don't get it..
 

somebodyelse

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I do agree about product longevity though. Too many irreplaceable parts and microcontrollers with secret firmware.
I was going to agree, knowing radio amateurs who are having trouble with the eproms from old microprocessor controlled kit fading, and now looking at building a firmware archive so they can write new ones to replace the faded ones. Then I thought of the number of older bits of kit that they can't repair because some other part has disintegrated and is undocumented, or there's no longer an equivalent part made, and all the old stock has run out. Someone doing some BBC archive work told me there weren't enough of a particular sort of tape head left in the world to read all the archive stock, so they were doing the most important ones first.
 

rdenney

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I live in a rural area near a metro area that makes only hot air and stacks of paper with stuff nobody every reads written thereon. (Washington DC.) Thus, repair capabilities around here are sparse and expensive, and I've learned over the years to do my own work. I've repaired both the washer and dryer, all our (five) vehicles, my fleet of bicycles, all our rural-life management equipment (tractors, etc.), and my vintage motor home.

There is a real diminishment in the availability of people who can do things in the three-dimensional world, and this seems to be a generational thing. I think there is a market for repairs, but people have to be willing to go through training like traditional apprenticeships. And manufacturers withholding common service parts from the open market is a real problem. I have tried hard to be self-sufficient from a maintenance standpoint, but that is my own thing, and not something everyone can or should commit to. It does make lots of things cheaper and easier, though. Manufacturers hate people like me, but don't provide alternatives with responsive and affordable service capabilities, so I have little sympathy and I'll buy knockoff (ripped-off) parts if necessary without feeling guilty.

Rick "recalling when service manuals for audio equipment were available to owners, not just in-company service people" Denney
 

David Harper

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While I can attest to the stupidity of some of the IoT implementations in the most unnecessary things, that doesn't quite have much baring on "things lasting long". In fact, electronic components which are now heavily commoditized, and virutally solid-state compared to mechanically functioning items, actually can be made to last longer than said mechanical devices. Mechanical devices have more points of failure (case and point being something like hard drives versus solid state drives). Less moving parts, less failure prone.

Also, the failure rates of many mainstream cost-optimized devices is one-part the fault of demand (tell me how many people you know who would be willing to buy an iPhone that lasts 10+ years, but also willing to pay something like $5,000 for it). Considerations for items lasting long are almost completely ignored in the mainstream sector of products. The second problem, is you have planned and intrinsic obsolescence (after the Industrial Revolution, economists along with businesses realized, supply has forever planted itself above demand, and we can never go back). In order for a company to sell something like a $500 computer-like phone (in functionality), and also turn a profit while competing with other companies, they need to control exactly how long a device lasts (before, this entailed using inferior materials that were known to degrade at a certain point, requiring users to repair the device at the company's repair centers). This level of earning wasn't enough, so they started making devices that would fail catastrophically and need complete replacement. Now you have software and firmware driven expiration dates further compounding the issue (Apple being one such company that all others can only dream of, with their near-complete grip over the complete operation from distribution, to manufacturing, to hardware and software controls).

People can make devices last longer than any of the bygone era devices we look back with nostalgia thinking they were devices that can never be surpassed in terms of durability. Our material sciences and engineering prowess has exploded that would make surpassing those older devices trivial. It's simply that in order to be a manufacturer these days, you have to compete on a global level, and if you're competing on a global level, you have to implement cost-savings for fiduciary responsibility of shareholders. And if a single company that's competing in the same industry as you does something like create devices that purposefully fail at a certain date to make people buy newer devices - you either must follow suit, or you'll be surpassed.



I don't get it.. Access to information in a packaged and quickly absorbable form is precisely the sort of psychological predisposition we have as living sentient creatures.

Silly notion, it would be like cavemen complaining about hammers being the worst thing ever, because using rocks required more skill to master nailing nails to a board. Computers have shifted learning priorities, letting people focus on things that they want to persue. It would be like saying "computers made us dumber, we should have stayed in jungles and plains, at least there we had things that made us smarter, like learning how to make a fire, or hunt animals ourselves, instead of being in air conditioned homes that make us lazier and fatter". Looking at a phone all day seems like something a normal person would do if given the option. People on public transportation for example today would be odd if they found more pleasure in staring at the walls of the vehicle compared to someone entertaining themselves with a phone, or getting some work done/prepared.

I'm really not sure how people are getting dumber looking at their phones (if anything, they're getting smarter). Or do you posit that walking around looking at the sky and road to work every single day is more productive and mentally constructive?




Yeah, who would naturally care to recall phone numbers of people when there are speed dial lists? It would be like saying "We don't remember how to cook food consistently anymore, it's all measured and written as notes on a piece of paper instead now". How does that make it a bad thing exactly? Because our memory isn't being trained or something? Who would want to train their memory with phone numbers anyway? What value is there to this?



This example is even worse. I fail completely to see what the problem is here? You'd have to be insane not to prefer GPS (better in virtually every single way when available). GPS makes use of maps, and if anything with the way GPS functions now, it's far more up-to-date than any printed map could be..



Why would anyone waste their time trying to manually long-divide things for example? Again, I'm failing to see what exactly is the problem here. I'd understand if you said, we should at least know how to do certain math operations in case we don't have calculators in a certain area. But to not use calculators when they're at your disposal, this seems like an insane notion especially concerning more complex operations that require half a page or more to solve for..

Or were you talking about children that don't know how to multiply single digit integers? Because if it's that, I don't know what school would allow calculators for such basic required knowledge.

I don't get it..
why would anyone want to waste their time thinking?
 

DSJR

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All you chaps with new-fangled audio and computing gear, let alone everything else :D

My main system has a German direct drive turntable (automatic too) and US made cartridge (late 70's) pre-power from the early 70's which is proudly US made for the pro market as well as the domestic one (still measures up well if Ken Rockwell is to be believed) although the controls are getting tetchy and one pair of speakers I have, currently in storage due to shabby grilles in need of new 'cloths,' were the first proper 'HiFi grade' speakers I sold back in 1974 and these plus the amps were inherited when the original owner passed away some years back. My CD player is a heavyweight from the late 80's and still 'sounds' respectable enough.

I suppose we should be extremely grateful that one can buy pretty much sota dacs for under a couple of hundred quid and very high quality and powerful amps can be got for a few hundred now. the only thing is that after a hopefully large number of years, it may not be possible to repair them once the internals have been updated (maybe the casework on some of the simpler amps can be saved for alternative projects, I don't know)..
 
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