My passion project/product

[EricfromSonocus]

I do have in my mind a balanced version of THA-1 with twice the complexity and part requirement. That one will have to be $1k+ and justifiably so.

 

[solderdude]

So the SE THA-1 will have an expected output power of around 0.7W in 300ohm and maybe up to 4W in 32ohm. (requiring 4V input voltage)
Gain approx 4x (+12dB)
a 2V output DAC would thus limit output voltage to 8V (instead of max 15V) limiting the output power in 300ohm to 200mW
What value volume control resistance ? I assume RK271 series ?

 

[EricfromSonocus]

So the SE THA-1 will have an expected output power of around 0.7W in 300ohm and maybe up to 4W in 32ohm.
What value volume control resistance ?
I assume RK271 series ?

Yes, correct. However, the production unit will be reconfigured for a more sustainable power level.

The amplifier remains single-ended Class A, so at higher output levels the deep bias generates substantial heat. The production chassis will accommodate larger heatsinks and improved ventilation, but for longevity and user safety, I intend to reduce the bias somewhat.

The PSU has enough reserve current, however, leaving room for a future high-power module—perhaps with horizontally mounted heatsinks like Schiit, or chassis-mounted heatsinking similar to Burson.


The volume control will be a 10 kΩ ALPS Blue Velvet.

 

[kemmler3D]

Lol so true!

However I made my choice while back that THA-1 will be value oriented. That way the brand Sonocus becomes more scalable, resilient, and ethical.

Sure I could sell it for $1k+ out of the gate, but it wont have the same value.

Because as of now THA-1 is basically a high end machine in a much more affordable packaging, which will help drive up the sale, reputation, and ultimately, satisfaction

I appreciate this goal for sure. I would just say that speaking from experience working in consumer audio, for a value oriented product the retail price should be at least 3x your cost and preferably closer to 5x. Once taxes, shipping, and returns (e: and packaging! Some sticker shock there...) are factored in, (among many other things) you'll notice your margins don't go as far as you'd hoped. I don't know your unit cost and wouldn't ask you to reveal it here, just commenting.

 

[solderdude]

The amplifier remains single-ended Class A,

Up to what level in which impedance will it remain in class A ?
In other words, what is the intended idle current ?
The output stage does not appear to be single ended class A but seems to be class A (up to a certain level in a certain impedance and class B above that and has a single ended output.
Ofcourse, for convenience one could offer TRS, XLR-4 and Pentaconn as outputs.
It might be an idea to have RCA and XLR-3 inputs as well.
Is the gain going to be increased to support maximum output level with 2Vrms inputs ?
Gain switch an idea ?

I like the usage of PCB + metal for front panel which would allow for easy color choises.
white, black, purple, green, blue red etc.

 

[Matt_Holland]

I

Lol so true!

However I made my choice while back that THA-1 will be value oriented. That way the brand Sonocus becomes more scalable, resilient, and ethical.

Sure I could sell it for $1k+ out of the gate, but it wont have the same value.

Because as of now THA-1 is basically a high end machine in a much more affordable packaging, which will help drive up the sale, reputation, and ultimately, satisfaction

I admire your values. I am just surprised you can make any profit at this price point. Thinking about scaling, you will struggle to open up distribution if you don't build those required additional margins into your pricing strategy from the outset. Maybe you have? And if so, that's wonderful! $350 just seems too cheap for such a high-end product.

 

[EricfromSonocus]

I

I admire your values. I am just surprised you can make any profit at this price point. Thinking about scaling, you will struggle to open up distribution if you don't build those required additional margins into your pricing strategy from the outset. Maybe you have? And if so, that's wonderful! $350 just seems too cheap for such a high-end product.

Thanks Matt.

The margin is there. Very low but still there.

Right now the goal is to get the units to as many relevant people as possible: one is going to a reviewer and another to a distributor, ect. And higher the satisfaction the more people will talk about the product online and that's what i need at the moment.

Here is a little bit of my history. I too have been on this rodeo before. It's a manual intensive work but the payoff is worth it for me.

Cheers, and thank you!

 

[kemmler3D]

Thinking about scaling, you will struggle to open up distribution if you don't build those required additional margins into your pricing strategy from the outset. Maybe you have? And if so, that's wonderful! $350 just seems too cheap for such a high-end product.

+1. Most retailers / distributors I've dealt with wanted 30-50% of MSRP for themselves. If you only have 50-70% margin for yourself, it gets tricky. It is surprisingly possible to ship an entire production run to stores and not have enough cash on hand to buy parts for the next one.

 

[Matt_Holland]

+1. Most retailers / distributors I've dealt with wanted 30-50% of MSRP for themselves. If you only have 50-70% margin for yourself, it gets tricky. It is surprisingly possible to ship an entire production run to stores and not have enough cash on hand to buy parts for the next one.

+1 on this. A 10x cost to MSRP multiplier isn’t uncommon.

Also what can happen is that a local distributor will ignore your MSRP and create their own margin structure and retail price for their market.

 

[kemmler3D]

+1 on this. A 10x cost to MSRP multiplier isn’t uncommon.

Also what can happen is that a local distributor will ignore your MSRP and create their own margin structure and retail price for their market.

Yes, I think having walked this path myself, the challenge of starting with a strong value, lower margin (30-50%) DTC product isn't necessarily making profits in the early days. The difficulty is when you want to scale up to reach more customers and realize that retail/ distribution is almost required to do so. At which point you realize the higher margins are also basically required. This puts a lot of pressure on the price / quality level your customers have come to expect. It's pretty hard to reduce unit costs by 70-80% to make that happen unless you can invest in a very large mass production run... (Big cash requirements there)

And alternatively, a follow up high-margin / low-cost product that is below the quality bar you've set with your customers is also problematic.

So I guess we're in agreement that OP should be careful to game out future 3-5 year scenarios wrt cost / margin beyond DTC, if any kind of distribution is on the table.

If OP really has comfortable margins under $500 then hats off and I'll be quiet about it.

 

[Matt_Holland]

Yes, I think having walked this path myself, the challenge of starting with a strong value, lower margin (30-50%) DTC product isn't necessarily making profits in the early days. The difficulty is when you want to scale up to reach more customers and realize that retail/ distribution is almost required to do so. At which point you realize the higher margins are also basically required. This puts a lot of pressure on the price / quality level your customers have come to expect. It's pretty hard to reduce unit costs by 70-80% to make that happen unless you can invest in a very large mass production run... (Big cash requirements there)

And alternatively, a follow up product that is below the quality bar you've set with your customers is also problematic.

So I guess we're in agreement that OP should be careful to game out future 3-5 year scenarios wrt cost / margin beyond DTC, if any kind of distribution is on the table.

If OP really has comfortable margins under $500 then hats off and I'll be quiet about it.

100% agreement

 

[EricfromSonocus]

Thank you for the much needed input guys. I am a better producer than a businessman for sure, haha. All this time ive only dealt in B2C.

After some consideration there is now to be a slight increase in the msrp.

One positive aspect about me having designed the THA-1 from ground up is that i know exactly what to do to update the design;

one will be inclusion of floating ground 'filter' for mainboard psu, to the total of 4 level filtering (capmx>prereg>reg>floating ground)

increase the copper pour to 2oz for lower impedance

inclusion of number of modules/updated modules in the base price

These are key elements that willl drastically improve the sq and user experience and prerequisite for justifying higher price.

They will have to be implemented through much testing and tuning though.

So for now $500 is an early bird special limited to 10 units, and $350 is still the preorder price for the next month. Thank you.

 

[kemmler3D]

Thank you for the much needed input guys. I am a better producer than a businessman for sure, haha. All this time ive only dealt in B2C.

After some consideration there is now to be a slight increase in the msrp.

One positive aspect about me having designed the THA-1 from ground up is that i know exactly what to do to update the design;

one will be inclusion of floating ground 'filter' for mainboard psu, to the total of 4 level filtering (capmx>prereg>reg>floating ground)

increase the copper pour to 2oz for lower impedance

inclusion of number of modules/updated modules in the base price

These are key elements that willl drastically improve the sq and user experience and prerequisite for justifying higher price.

They will have to be implemented through much testing and tuning though.

So for now $500 is an early bird special limited to 10 units, and $350 is still the preorder price for the next month. Thank you.

Glad to be helpful!

B2C / DTC can be sustainable, but the cost / effort involved in marketing ends up being much greater over time. Of course, you can't get away from marketing / ads entirely either way, (stores and distributors like it if people have heard of your brand) but finding more customers yourself without going through retailers or distributors involves proportionally more marketing. This will tend to eat up margin also. Even attending an audio show as an exhibitor is fairly costly, let alone advertising...

Remaining "boutique" and avoiding all of this is an option, but there is a reason those tiny brands also have very high prices, otherwise you can't make enough revenue to keep a roof over your head with just a few customers...

Pricing is one of the trickiest tasks in marketing / product development, there is a surprising amount of strategy that goes into one simple number...

 

[EricfromSonocus]

Marketing has never been my forte.


Im an introvert with background in visual arts, and a lifelong audiophils and so was naturally drawn to to this type of work.



Machine building was my full time job in korea for several years during which time i handbuilt and sold over 200 machines, the last 100 being the precesesor to THA-1 with same dual mono architecture and attention to detail, focus on internal design rather than the chassis. My ethos has always been if you build it they will come.


The machines ended up earning a small reputation in korea and i was selling 7 to 10 a month consistently without any marketing. Some of my customers still message me time to time and im sure a lot of my machines are still being used daily.


During this time I felt that marketing was my last step but now being outside korea and choosing to sell internationally, marketing has become my first step.


The THA-1's design has been in maturity for years: its robust, completely hum free in itself (also the dual mono grounding config affords that it will have less susceptability to external ground loop than mono supply machine) and sounds great, just great.


The unit i will send to amir, should he be kind enough to accept it, will be fitted with the kraken module with opa1655 at the heart. Maybe not the measurement champ since that is not my aim with that module design but it will still measure well in all parameters and hopefully enough for his seal of approval.


The reason why its not an intended measurement champ is because tho the opamp used will be sota, the buffer being fed is a simple classic design.


I favor this buffer because it has very pleasant harmonic profile (read: globs of h2) and tho the opamp cancels most of it out it still sounds more natural than the chip solutions which ive tried in the past.


Buf634, lme49600, they will sound cleaner but also sterile, and i am a builder and a listener first and foremost, and i design my machines to be listened by me.


This is also why i chose dual mono architecture and stuck to it. Measurement-wise there is not much benefit to gain from it, afaik, but having those 2 seperate groundings, 100% identical channel layout, and double the current reserve of most linear psu products that only use one 25va trafo whereas i use two, there is a difference to be heard.


I mean you can hear headroom, in how effortless and bottomless the bass is, and THA-1 does offer that. You can also hear psrr with the stiffness of the supply in how firm and defined the bass is and THA-1 also does that.


Not only that, since i always aim for textbook perfect layout, and in case of kraken module went beyond that by bypassing the opamp pin 1 to consolidate the feedback network to pin2 as tight as possible, the high frequency performance is excellent and treble always sounds airy and i dare say, sparkling.


Also we are now in a value war, not measurement war. Measurement war seemingly ended with the advant of soundplus opamps and now the chinese brands are working hard to pack as much value as possible into each price tiers, of which effort i do admire.


But as a result its become chips, all chips from psu to output, switchmode and sterile. And in the process we forgot how natural and human high voltage linear supply can sound with a complex discrete circuit and THA-1 offers just that with its Module D-01. With my sample i cranked up the voltage to +-24 and it did things i never heard from the kraken (or Module C-01. Im dropping the name kraken for the sake of simplicity). More dynamic and natural sounding.


There is a reason why certain ultra high end brands like gryphon or goldmund run their discretes at 50v+ and linearity and dynamics is the reason why, and THA-1 inches toward that direction with what modest configuration I can manage in this price range.


The machine sounds wonderful, i have no hesitation saying that for myself. The gentleman in MN who received the sample THA-1 said it was the best sound he's heard it in 30 years. And for me its the best headphone amp i could have made with the years i spent on it.


And so my challenge now is marketing, packaging, and logistics. Who would have thought the last 10% of the journey is as hard as the first 90%? Haha.



(Tho the THA-1's design had been finished since a year ago, the last six months has been spent redesigning the chassis to its current attractiveness)


((The module design will never stop. New modules will always be on the horizon for endless upgrades, for always low prices. Module D-01 and C-01 will launch with the THA-1, which are discrete and composite modules. And then B-01, which is zero feedback servo controlled buffer module for iem, will be made. Also mini leach/bryston type and curret feedback discrete module are planned, mostly because i want them, haha))

 

[kemmler3D]

And so my challenge now is marketing, packaging, and logistics. Who would have thought the last 10% of the journey is as hard as the first 90%? Haha.

Well, as a former consumer audio marketing / product person, I would agree with this 10/90% thing.

I am about 6 years out from that role so my advice will not be totally up to date but the right marketing tactics will depend on your business goals, and in large part your cash situation.

Quick thoughts:

Get a sense of how many units you would like to sell, and how much you are ready to spend on marketing to reach that target.

For that goal, you will need to figure out where you can find enough suitable customers.

From there, you can figure out how those customers decide to purchase a product like yours. Your marketing activities should aim to make your product prominent in / around the channels that people use to make that decision. More specifically that will mostly be reviews, but where the reviews are and which reviewers conduct the reviews is important to think about. ASR? Facebook? Youtube? Independent magazines? Etc.

In addition to that, consider what supplementary tactics you will use - ads? Email newsletter from your website? (many people "think" for a year or more before making such a purchase - it pays to stay in their inbox during that year...)

Marketing is a wide and deep thing, but it starts with figuring out who is going to buy your thing, and figuring out where they ought to find out about it. ASR is a good start. What about other forums? etc.

Also, listing on marketplaces can be very effective, but sites like Amazon demand their own marketing tactics and are a lot of work unto themselves.

As far as packaging my advice is:

1. Prevent damage
2. Minimize cost
3. Look nice / good unboxing experience

In that order. High quality packaging has a high unit cost and IMO doesn't drive sales unless your customers watch unboxing videos a lot. If they do, think carefully about it.

Logistics: Ocean freight as often as you can do it. Fulfillment: You can DIY up to around 100 units per month if you have the space at home or whatever, but international shipping gets very time consuming. A third party warehouse can be cost effective given that they also often get discounts from carriers. Don't assume packing and shipping yourself is worth the effort.

 

[EricfromSonocus]

Glad to be helpful!

B2C / DTC can be sustainable, but the cost / effort involved in marketing ends up being much greater over time. Of course, you can't get away from marketing / ads entirely either way, (stores and distributors like it if people have heard of your brand) but finding more customers yourself without going through retailers or distributors involves proportionally more marketing. This will tend to eat up margin also. Even attending an audio show as an exhibitor is fairly costly, let alone advertising...

Remaining "boutique" and avoiding all of this is an option, but there is a reason those tiny brands also have very high prices, otherwise you can't make enough revenue to keep a roof over your head with just a few customers...

Pricing is one of the trickiest tasks in marketing / product development, there is a surprising amount of strategy that goes into one simple number...

I guess my previous post was a bit of marketing.

Thank you for your input btw.

Margin is acceptable for me since Im not living in the US anymore. Tbh, i'd be happy with the kind of sales number i was generating in KR, which was mostly through word of mouth, loyal fanbase.

But yes, that initial intro into the international scene is proving to be very difficult. Once i start producing actual goods next month and send out loaners+ fulfilment of preorders im hoping to see some sunshine

 

[EricfromSonocus]

Well, as a former consumer audio marketing / product person, I would agree with this 10/90% thing.

I am about 6 years out from that role so my advice will not be totally up to date but the right marketing tactics will depend on your business goals, and in large part your cash situation.

Quick thoughts:

Get a sense of how many units you would like to sell, and how much you are ready to spend on marketing to reach that target.

For that goal, you will need to figure out where you can find enough suitable customers.

From there, you can figure out how those customers decide to purchase a product like yours. Your marketing activities should aim to make your product prominent in / around the channels that people use to make that decision. More specifically that will mostly be reviews, but where the reviews are and which reviewers conduct the reviews is important to think about. ASR? Facebook? Youtube? Independent magazines? Etc.

In addition to that, consider what supplementary tactics you will use - ads? Email newsletter from your website? (many people "think" for a year or more before making such a purchase - it pays to stay in their inbox during that year...)

Marketing is a wide and deep thing, but it starts with figuring out who is going to buy your thing, and figuring out where they ought to find out about it. ASR is a good start. What about other forums? etc.

Also, listing on marketplaces can be very effective, but sites like Amazon demand their own marketing tactics and are a lot of work unto themselves.

As far as packaging my advice is:

1. Prevent damage
2. Minimize cost
3. Look nice / good unboxing experience

In that order. High quality packaging has a high unit cost and IMO doesn't drive sales unless your customers watch unboxing videos a lot. If they do, think carefully about it.

Logistics: Ocean freight as often as you can do it. Fulfillment: You can DIY up to around 100 units per month if you have the space at home or whatever, but international shipping gets very time consuming. A third party warehouse can be cost effective given that they also often get discounts from carriers. Don't assume packing and shipping yourself is worth the effort.

Thank you so much for this

 

[kemmler3D]

One other thing I would add is that Kickstarter / crowdfunding campaigns look appealing because you see new brands with big sales, seemingly out of nowhere. However, what normally happens in those cases is a large advertising campaign leading up to the crowdfunding campaign, and during it. A $200K crowdfunding campaign might spend $50-70K on ads to achieve that.

Ad spend can be minimized by spending a very long time leading up to the campaign building a mailing list with lower ad spend, sometimes a year or more.

Just wanted to throw it out there, it can be a good path but when you look under the hood, it is not as shiny.

 

[EricfromSonocus]

Yeah i have to admit i dont know the details of how kickstarter works. I figured if i generate enough buzz with THA-1 through forums like this, people would naturally flock to the kickstarter campaign. There's not that many headphone amps listed. I used to see more in the past but i guess theyre taken down.

If you could show me such a newsletter you mention id appreciate it. Youre more than welcome to dm me also. Thank you!

 

[EricfromSonocus]

the first batch of THA-1 is nearing completion and these are the modules that i will be using:

Module D01(THT)/THE FRANKENSTEIN

It's a combination of several design ideas hence the name Frankenstein ('s monster). It's Dean Jensen's JE918 input stage, values improved with modern sim and then boostrapped vas of Aksa55 with optobias of whammy, and hexfet outputs with bjt drivers.

In the sim I get 1.2ppm THD with rockstable behavior, dominant H2 which was the goal with this module. It should sound warm and have a thick, bouncy bass while still being highly resolute of details.

I also use slighty aggressive LPT values in order to avoid listening fatigue.