• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

My JBL 305p quasi-anechoic polar measurements

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
Good evening dorks. I picked up a pair of these speakers because I wanted a small accurate desktop monitor for editing dialog. They are good sounding speakers, but I did want something fairly accurate, so I took quasi anechoic measurements of the speakers this evening.

The measurements are good to about 200hz, where I gated. I also took measurements in the nearfield, merging them with the farfield gated polars, getting a reasonably accurate picture of the speaker's response from 0-120 degrees, in 10 degree increments. If you don't know what gated measurements are, basically it is a clever way of ignoring parts of the impulse response which occur after some set duration, enabling one to remove room effects from the response. This distinguishes these measurements from others seen on the internet - these are quite accurate above 200hz, and reasonably representative below, as if they were taken in an anechoic chamber.

Measurement notes:
ARTA using MLS sequences for the upper frequency range and sine sweeps for the nearfield woofer measurement
Speaker was set to '0db' for the LF trim and '-2db' for the HF trim.
Nearfield woofer measurements spliced in around 200hz, and I think I may have set it a bit too high.
Mic is a manufacturer calibrated emm-6 about 2' from the tweeter at tweeter level
I didn't do vertical responses because I am lazy
Ignore the absolute level- absolute SPL is meaningless here

Importing the measurements into VituixCAD, a great freeware speaker design package, I get the following:
305-RESPONSE.jpg


Well, considering the treble is already attenuated by 2db, this is not very flat. Note the vertical scale of the measurements; nevertheless I am seeing a pronounced non resonances in the 2-4k region. This is bad; on the other hand, the polar response is excellent. The green line on the top graph is an average of the responses from 0 out to 15 or 30 degrees - basically a reasonable hifi listening window. You can hardly see this line because it matches the direct response (0 deg) out to 10K! This would be exceptional for a conventional hifi speaker; very few baffle mounted tweeters have dispersion this wide that high up.

Also in the 'good news' category is the directivity sonogram seen below. This is not normalized, and shows clear directivity control down to 500hz or maybe even a bit below. This is the stuff that can't be corrected with DSP - this is the fundamental acoustic design of the speaker, and it is outstanding, especially for a small speaker. You might get a polar response this smooth with a conventional 2 way, using a high crossover frequency and a LR2 slope, but you won't get it as tight.

We can also see that in the area of confidence (say, 300hz up) that there are no spatial discontinuities - there's no holes or peaks in the response as you move up and down at a given frequency. This is nice, because it means that if the direct response was EQ'd flat, you wouldn't make anything worse off axis.

So what can we do? Well, with dsp we can do some correction of the speaker. Generally DSP correction is discussed in the context of low frequency, to help combat room effects below the Schroeder frequency. I am more interested in making the speaker more linear in the 200-20K region. Using Room EQ wizard, we can do this pretty easily.

Notes on correction:
I set REW to only correct above 300hz - it's pretty rare that there are sharp resonances in speakers below this range.
I used the 'generic' preset, which gives you 20 bands of PEQ. If you're using an equalizer with fewer bands, I'd focus on the low Q corrections, but then again I'm not exactly an expert.

Here is the response before and after:

REW.jpg



As you can see, it's making a ton of corrections, but the minimalist in me would suggest the most important is the boost from 300 to 1K, and the taming of the peak around 3K.

Anyway, here's my review - good sounding speakers but not what I would expect for a reference monitor. When I use them for that purpose I'll be using REAPER, and I'll throw compensating EQ into the master bus. I've heard that works. I'm not sure if this EQ makes the speaker sound better; I haven't listened yet, but bringing the mids and taming that peak would be what I would do if I was designing this speaker. Will take further measurements as sanity check.
 

Attachments

  • correction.JPG
    correction.JPG
    57.4 KB · Views: 356

Duke

Major Contributor
Audio Company
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 22, 2016
Messages
1,555
Likes
3,860
Location
Princeton, Texas
Great measurements, great job of finding speakers that already do what you can't fix (radiation pattern), and great job of fixing what you can via DSP (frequency response, which includes both on and off axis).

I think the little JBL 305P is a mixing monitor, not a "reference monitor". So the broad gentle dippage from 300 to 1k and the peak from 2k to 3.5k may actually be deliberate.

You see, those anomalies will lead the engineer to warm up that lower midrange region just a wee bit, and to pull down that lower treble region (where harshness tends to reside) somewhat, and the end result will probably be a mix that sounds good on a wide variety of sound systems. Then he'd probably use a more accurate set of speakers as his reference monitors.

In other words, the 305P may be an excellent tool for its intended job, which probably isn't the job you had in mind. But you were right about its potential!
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
I think the little JBL 305P is a mixing monitor, not a "reference monitor". So the broad gentle dippage from 300 to 1k and the peak from 2k to 3.5k may actually be deliberate.

In other words, the 305P may be an excellent tool for its intended job, which probably isn't the job you had

I'm new to the recording world, and the distinction between a mixing and reference monitor are new to me.

What concerns me is that the measurements I've seen for the original lsr305 are dead flat. The measurements are quite disappointing frankly, so much so that I've ordered a new measurements mic to test them again.

EDIT: I've contacted JBL in the hopes that they'll provide some insight. It's possible I got a bad pair, or my mic is on the fritz. Will hopefully see some resolution soon.
 
Last edited:

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,723
Likes
2,908
Location
Finland
My measurement of LSR305 at 3' shows a bump around 2.7kHz too, edge diffraction? Some box resonances were found in distortion graph, so I put a transverse brace inside.
305P response is a bit worse, but it seems to be otherwise better package.

lsr305f 0-90¤ 8ms 16.jpg

lsr305 1m 5ms nosmo 0 20.jpg
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
My measurement of LSR305 at 3' shows a bump around 2.7kHz too, edge diffraction? Some box resonances were found in distortion graph, so I put a transverse brace inside.
305P response is a bit worse, but it seems to be otherwise better package.

Juhazi, do you have your original REW files? I'd be interested in seeing how they compare to mine after gating, provided they weren't measured on a desk or something.
 

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,723
Likes
2,908
Location
Finland
Yep, I measured it on a kitchen ladder, but off-axis angles are not accurate. Tell me your email in private message and I will send them to you! I still have them and I can do more measurements.
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
Yep, I measured it on a kitchen ladder, but off-axis angles are not accurate. Tell me your email in private message and I will send them to you! I still have them and I can do more measurements.

Do you have both the 305ii and the LSR305 or just the LSR305?
 

Juhazi

Major Contributor
Joined
Sep 15, 2018
Messages
1,723
Likes
2,908
Location
Finland
Only the older version. I am very happy with them really! One is a bedroom tv speaker and my daughter uses the other as cell phone driven music speaker (yes, mono because there is no room for a stereo pair - poor girl)
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
Only the older version. I am very happy with them really! One is a bedroom tv speaker and my daughter uses the other as cell phone driven music speaker (yes, mono because there is no room for a stereo pair - poor girl)

We discuss the speaker like it's a serious audio product but for a hundred dollars it's competing with boomboxes! They do sound great, I would wholeheartedly recommend them for fun/gaming/listening to music.
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
Update - I did some testing today and learned that Equalizer APO is tenacious enough to equalize while running measurement software, in my case, ARTA. This is really cool, as it allows me to measure the speaker, equalize it in REW/Equalizer APO/PEACE and then measure it again. As a result I carefully equalized each speaker.

The speaker I measured above performs worse than its counterpart; both similar but the big hump in the mid treble was a bit more tame in the other. Poor consistency, but again this is a 100 dollar speaker essentially, with no dsp.

Since the acoustic functionality of the speaker is so good, and since equalizer APO could get a flatter result than any affordable off-the-shelf speaker, I decided to make a stereo EQ setting for it which reflects new measurements. The results are below:

305 after correction.png


Notice the db scale on the left - 5db for each big ass division (funny how FR graphs start to look different when you're trying to use them rather than simply trying to sell them...) Anyway, these speakers are now matched to within 1/2db I'd say, and the total response lives in a very civilized +/- 1db. The sound difference is subtle, but the EQ definitely took some harshness out of the 1-3k region. Note that these measurements are only good to around 180hz (see the little yellow bar at bottom which says where my gate is) and EQ was only done above 300hz.

Woofer resonances and sensitivity are the result of macro-mechanical factors like magnets and cones and elastic suspensions, so pair variability and little resonances here are less likely compared to the upper midrange and tweeter region, where acoustic effects start to really come into play, and where smaller factors like waveguide centering and adhesive quantity begin to matter more.

Anyway, I will update this thread if Harman responds, but for the moment I'd just recommend these speakers with Equalizer APO and peace, which enables you to easily turn off the EQ if you switch to headphones or something.
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
Update - Harman pro support suggested that I listen to the speaker in their 'sweet spot' which is sort of funny because it's this speaker's triumph that it doesn't have a sweet spot.
 

daftcombo

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 5, 2019
Messages
3,688
Likes
4,069
What is your subjective opinion of these speakers corrected VS without DSP?
 

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,067
Location
Zg, Cro
Note that these measurements are only good to around 180hz (see the little yellow bar at bottom which says where my gate is) and EQ was only done above 300hz.

Heh.. Most of the EQ should actually be done below 300Hz.

P.S. how comes that level is at app 127dB?
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
What is your subjective opinion of these speakers corrected VS without DSP?
Corrected they're fine if not particularly good. Instrument textures don't come across very well, realism isn't great. Imaging on a desk is good. Uncorrected they're pretty harsh. They're good for the price, and the price is low.
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
Heh.. Most of the EQ should actually be done below 300Hz.

P.S. how comes that level is at app 127dB?

As I mentioned, spl is not callibrated. EQ of the bass is a complex undertaking and eq above 300hz makes a lot of sense when linearity is this bad. If bass was extended you'd run into amp and excursion issues. Bass eq is not really a good idea on a desktop due to the farfield being relatively quiet and the woofers being small.
 

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,067
Location
Zg, Cro
As I mentioned, spl is not callibrated.

Aha, ok, didn't notice that.

EQ of the bass is a complex undertaking and eq above 300hz makes a lot of sense when linearity is this bad. If bass was extended you'd run into amp and excursion issues. Bass eq is not really a good idea on a desktop due to the farfield being relatively quiet and the woofers being small.

IMHO you should be very carefull when doing EQ above 300Hz as you can easilly overdo it chasing linearity. If you introduce many high Q filters you can easilly make things worse, not better.

I wasn't suggesting you boost bass to levels more than your speakers can handle, I was suggesting you EQ both speakers to a level shown with yellow line. That would make both channels equal and closer to Harman target curve.

How did you make measurements that were basis for EQ? Was it a single sweep or RTA moving mike method over some area?

305 after correction.png


EDIT: sorry, wrong pic.
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
Aha, ok, didn't notice that.



IMHO you should be very carefull when doing EQ above 300Hz as you can easilly overdo it chasing linearity. If you introduce many high Q filters you can easilly make things worse, not better.

I wasn't suggesting you boost bass to levels more than your speakers can handle, I was suggesting you EQ both speakers to a level shown with yellow line. That would make both channels equal and closer to Harman target curve.

How did you make measurements that were basis for EQ? Was it a single sweep or RTA moving mike method over some area?

View attachment 29542

EDIT: sorry, wrong pic.
I believe I summarized the measurement technique before. MLS signals averaged to cancel out environmental noise and gated to exclude room effects.
 

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,067
Location
Zg, Cro
I believe I summarized the measurement technique before. MLS signals averaged to cancel out environmental noise and gated to exclude room effects.

Mentioning ARTA/MLS signals hardly describes how you did measurements unless you are familiar with ARTA. As you applied gating the curve is under 180Hz is meaningless.

I understand you are trying to EQ speakers and not do room EQ, but that is practically impossible to do with room measurements. You would be much better with room EQ up to 300Hz and only mild corrections north of it, primarilly to adjust to an optimal listening target curve and your own listening preferences.
 
OP
617

617

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
2,433
Likes
5,376
Location
Somerville, MA
Mentioning ARTA/MLS signals hardly describes how you did measurements unless you are familiar with ARTA. As you applied gating the curve is under 180Hz is meaningless.

I understand you are trying to EQ speakers and not do room EQ, but that is practically impossible to do with room measurements. You would be much better with room EQ up to 300Hz and only mild corrections north of it, primarilly to adjust to an optimal listening target curve and your own listening preferences.

I'm not sure how much more specific I can be. I used a measurement mic and the speaker on a tall turntable stand putting it in the center of an indoor space. I use MLS because ARTA can average them. When I use sweeps the measurements are identical. The gating removes room effects and a nearfield woofer measurement extends the response into the bass region. The splicing was done with a modeled baffle step correction. I like to do these splices in VituixCAD.

The gated measurements were combined with near field woofer measurements. These are quasi anechoic measurements. The speaker has major nonlinearities with regards to treble level and that is what I corrected. I am using a PC for the eq which offers essentially unlimited eq bands.

These measurements are quasi anechoic. Forgive me if you already understand this, but these measurements are identical or very close to what you'd get if you measured the speakers in an anechoic chamber.
 

Krunok

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
4,600
Likes
3,067
Location
Zg, Cro
I'm not sure how much more specific I can be. I used a measurement mic and the speaker on a tall turntable stand putting it in the center of an indoor space. I use MLS because ARTA can average them. When I use sweeps the measurements are identical. The gating removes room effects and a nearfield woofer measurement extends the response into the bass region. The splicing was done with a modeled baffle step correction. I like to do these splices in VituixCAD.

The gated measurements were combined with near field woofer measurements. These are quasi anechoic measurements. The speaker has major nonlinearities with regards to treble level and that is what I corrected. I am using a PC for the eq which offers essentially unlimited eq bands.

These measurements are quasi anechoic. Forgive me if you already understand this, but these measurements are identical or very close to what you'd get if you measured the speakers in an anechoic chamber.

Well, I never had a chance to compare my quasi anechoic measurements with true anechoic measurements but it is certainly the best you can do at home. What was the distance between the mike and the speakers in both measurements?

Btw, why are blue and red line so different below app 340Hz?
 
Top Bottom