My first REW measurements(KEF R3 META)

[TheZebraKilledDarwin]

Human hearing cannot reconstruct direct sound awash in indirect sound. Therefore it's impossible to hear details in a mix in reverberant rooms, if the indirect sound is too high.

That's the reason why great mixes can be made on uncorrected, even bad sounding speakers: because the mixers learn how their speakers sound and how they translate. But it's not possible, to make a good sounding mix, in an untreated room. In an untreated room it's not even possible to get the reverb levels right, because the room on the track cannot be judged. Not even to mention to hear the kind of reverb as customer: is it a plate or a hall? Is it with or without predelay? Is it a small room or a slapback program? All that was carefully decided and is in the mix and can be heard - but only in acoustically treated environments (or on headphones).
Anyone who is listening to high levels of indirect sound, is depriving himself of any details.

I don't want to even get talking about movies. The beauty of people talking in a bathroom and then walking down the hallway, going outside. A endless amazing sonic adventure that cannot be heard with high levels of indirect room sound.

 

[kolestonin]

You are measuring left and right speaker together which is useless. Each speaker should be individually measured and corrected.

Does everybody else agrees with this statement?
I am a total noob with REW and I just followed web tutorials so to define my settings.
So this is my biggest concern. If my settings are not correct then the starting point for all the conversation and my efforts is wrong. If measuring L+R together is misleading me then there is no point to seek for advice based on these measurements.
I will have to repeat the whole procedure and re-start the conversation on another base.

I’d say, don’t overthink it. Don’t try to optimise something purely speculative. From the pictures you’ve shown I know where I would spend my money first: that TV screen is way too small for the viewing distance. The biggest wow factor in your setup will likely come from getting a properly sized screen between those speakers. And this coming from someone who is usually blasé about TV screens. Next up, get lots of soft furnishings in that room, before thinking of bass traps and other traps for the unwary.

I am more than happy with this 43'' screen. I don't game any more and all the films I watch are european cinefile with no special effects or even good picture quality. My current screen is on wheels. When I need to read or watch something I bring it close to the couch. But by moving it forward it works like sound barrier. A bigger screen will literally work as a bigger barrier blocking sound even more. For critical listening I put the screen close to the wall and between the two speakers. And as I think it, a bigger screen between the speakers will again have more interference with them. So this should not be in my priorities when I look to improve the sound in my room. I would only consider changing my screen with a projector once prices for 4k ones drop a bit more.

 

[Gruesome]

I'm dealing with the same question (do I need to start by measuring and correcting left and right speakers separately?) right now. My current thinking is, that the same speaker in different room positions does indeed couple differently to the room modes, so yes, one would need to equalize the speakers differently.
The room modes are standing waves between the four walls and ceiling/floor, and the coupling is determined by whether a speaker is close to a minimum or maximum amplitude point (plane, really) of such a standing wave.
But the underlying modes are the same (since they are determined by the same room) for both speaker positions.

For equalization that would mean that there is a common underlying set of filters, but each speaker will need them to a differing degree.

If one applies only the average correction to both channels, some modes (frequencies) will be excited more by one than the other speaker, and after correction one would still have left/right imbalances. I.e. one would hear relatively more from the undercorrected channel/speaker.

While this sounds bad, especially if one can't equalize left and right channel separately, in a traditional symmetric placement of speakers (same distance of speakers from wall behind them, and from their nearest side wall), the coupling to room modes should be the same for both speakers.

Asymmetric placement of damping material (curtains, couches, carpets, people) should not destroy this symmetry with regard to room modes, but of course first reflections can be affected differently (e.g. bookshelf next to one speaker, and glass door next to the other).

 

[hemiutut]

I am sharing my REW measurements seeking for conclusions, thoughts, EQ and/or room treatment advise.

What you see are the measurements of my main(2,2m) as well as my secondary(5m) listening position in a 30m2 non treated but really cared(curtains, carpets, furniture, canvas, positioning) room.
View attachment 284362
I took 7 measurements on each position moving the mic 10cm around the initial main placement and asked REW to give me the average.

MLP Average:
View attachment 284363
2nd LP Average:
View attachment 284364
Comparison:
View attachment 284365

Edited:
I have been able to look over the Filtered IR,RT60 ( Topt,T20,T30 )ETC,Spectrogram and I advise you to.
when you can put acoustic treatment and in the meantime put equalization.
I see him on the defensive and it is normal, no one likes to be told certain comments after the investment that in his case has in components.
The problem is that what you have is not solved with a change of components and that you have a great advantage, since you have the main listening point in near field.
Imagine if you were 3-4 meters away.

Written with translator

Greetings

 

[TurtlePaul]

I think that some people are being perfectionists. It is fine to run L+R to correct the major room modes. Correcting the 50 hz mode is about 75% of the improvement that can be made in your listening environment and it is unlikely to be impacted by phase (the frequency is too low).

Dis you try the filter I suggested above? Should take about 10 minutes.

 

[sam_adams]

Does everybody else agrees with this statement?

You should measure the speakers separately. Measuring together can produce comb filtering in the response.

What is your measurement setup? Do you have the mic on a boom-type mic stand or are you using the included tripod mic on boxes, a chair, or some other improvised method?

How did you position the mic for the sweeps? Did you point it in between the speakers ('0' degree alignment) or at the ceiling ( 90 degree alignment)? If you used the '0' degree alignment and the mic was placed ahead of the listening position, that explains the drop in response above 10 KHz.

You did not use a timing reference in your measurements. You should use an acoustic timing reference when making measurements. Select either the left or right speaker to have a common frame of reference.

You have two subwoofers in the room. What are you using to adjust the timing of the subs to each other? What are you using to adjust the timing of the subs to the main speakers?

What are the exact measurements of the room, LxWxH? Take the width measurement at your main listening position and ignore the bump out in the measurements as it won't generally make much difference for the room's modes.

 

[kolestonin]

I think that some people are being perfectionists. It is fine to run L+R to correct the major room modes. Correcting the 50 hz mode is about 75% of the improvement that can be made in your listening environment and it is unlikely to be impacted by phase (the frequency is too low).

Dis you try the filter I suggested above? Should take about 10 minutes.

I will return home on next Thursday and definitely try it. As you say it cost nothing.

@sam_adams see my answers below

You should measure the speakers separately. Measuring together can produce comb filtering in the response.

What is your measurement setup? Do you have the mic on a boom-type mic stand or are you using the included tripod mic on boxes, a chair, or some other improvised method?
a boom-type mic stand
How did you position the mic for the sweeps? Did you point it in between the speakers ('0' degree alignment) or at the ceiling ( 90 degree alignment)? If you used the '0' degree alignment and the mic was placed ahead of the listening position, that explains the drop in response above 10 KHz.
I used '0' degree alignment
You did not use a timing reference in your measurements. You should use an acoustic timing reference when making measurements. Select either the left or right speaker to have a common frame of reference.
can you elaborate a bit more on how to use an acoustic timing reference? a link might help.
You have two subwoofers in the room. What are you using to adjust the timing of the subs to each other? What are you using to adjust the timing of the subs to the main speakers?
Literally nothing. My equipment does not permit me to do any sophisticated sub integration. I spent a lot of time in sub's placement using the crawl method, tried different low pass filters so to find the sweet spot but nothing other than that.
What are the exact measurements of the room, LxWxH? Take the width measurement at your main listening position and ignore the bump out in the measurements as it won't generally make much difference for the room's modes. see attached photo where you can see room dimensions

 

[kolestonin]

A little update on my case.

During the last month I contacted some acoustic material selling companies, provided them with my measurements and the photos&dimensions of my space.
Without entering in details, most of them proposed me a room treatment solution with an average(of all proposals) cost of 2000 euros and an almost no go for me intervention in terms of amount of panels/bass traps in my living room.
So I abandoned the idea of room treatment as I realized that a moderate and minimal approach will have little or no benefits.

As for EQ, it still remains a complicated and abstract field for me and given the lack of personal time and the lack of 'charm' by the whole procedure I decided to postpone it. I understand that if you want to achieve a goal you need to try and pay the due. I did it many times in the past for my job and as well for my hobbies. But a minimum interest in the investigation, experimentation, measurements, process is a prerequisite so to start trying.

So I decided to take an unconventional and maybe more drastic route and completely change my setup in the living room.
By doing so, I hope to achieve better sound on MLP due to the speakers having more space in their boundaries(I think I will need to completely remove the very useful glass panels doors), but most importantly improve sound quality on 2nd LP where I pass 8 hours of my day when I telework. Sound will be coming directly to me as my desk will not be any more 'hidden' in the corner.
I will also have more space in the part of the living room where me and my family pass the biggest part of our time in this room.
And of course the option to add some more furniture(ex. one or two armchairs) and really big already bought 3mX4m thick carpet covering the biggest part of the floor.

Once I complete the transformation, I plan to take measurements with as many possible subwoofers placements I can and share them with you so to advice me on which one is the best measurements wise.

I share again the photos of my current living room setup(before the change) with some before and after graphs so to help you understand my project.
Fell free to comment/advice on my thoughts and chosen approach and of course stay tuned for what is about to come!

 

[Gruesome]

Moving both the speakers and the listening positions away from corners and walls should reduce the coupling to and perception of room modes. The second listening position before was pretty much all indirect sound, so the repositioning should help. The large area carpet should also help with the decay time.
The all or nothing approach for acoustical damping proposed by vendors sounds odd. You are not trying to create a dead (acoustically speaking) room.

I completely agree with your assessment regarding motivation. The measurements should not become a goal in themselves (unless of course they are enjoyable).

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I think you can play with position for find the best position, find a place where the bass cancel it self less.
And then, run REW... and fill these dip with more bass! run the instruction to rew to fill these dips. The REW can generate filters, but you match the max dB range, use your ears to find the spot where REW correct the issue but i sound correct


The reververation and these kind of stuff, its only some damping in the walls, find some cheap ass and do it by yourself, do not contact anybody for that task because it will increase a lot the price.

 

[kolestonin]

Finally found some time and did the change.

I couldn't be happier. Room became way more pleasant and functional and sound improved significantly.
A night and day difference on second listening position(working desk) but also on the couch the improvement is quite obvious. Especially in the bass region where I always had a feeling I was missing bass intensity with previous setup(from which I already posted measurements. But more than intense, bass is now more balanced, more integrated in the songs in a way. I can definitely say that I never enjoyed bass so much as with this placement.

It is very early to have some more concrete conclusions as I finished setting up everything just yesterday and I need to do some more critical listening with my benchmark tracks and of course find the time to do measurements which I will share with you so to have some help with the next step(EQ). I had the plan to try as much as sub's placement combinations as possible and perform a measurement for each setup so to have your feedback on which is the best measurements wise. But then I realize that my current placement is by far the best in terms of room aesthetics and functionality. Or to tell it differently all the others will be way problematic for various reasons. So, I think I will stick with what you see in the photos.

It is worth mentioning this the first time I have a perfect symmetry in my equipment. Meaning the distance between subs and speakers is equally shared. It is the first time I use identical cables to connect my gear. A two meter cable is connecting each sub with my preamp and a 3m cable each speaker with my power amp. I don't have the knowledge and with a quick googling did not find any to the point references. But I think by lurking on these forums I have read that symmetry plays a role in subs integration. I understand that of course room acoustics are completely different now, but is this(symmetry) something that could have furtherly improved my sound?

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

but is this(symmetry) something that could have furtherly improved my sound?

Did you take measurements again?
the idea should be play with position until you find a spot where the measurements looks great

 

[kolestonin]

Unfortunately not.
That's the plan and I will share them once done.
I just want to do thing as they should be done.
I am very busy this period(meaning no time to do everything ocd level) and I also have some guests I don't want to disturb with microphones, stands, cables and sweeps. They also make my home more noisy.

 

[RickyC34]

Hope you're enjoying the R3's. I picked up a pair a few months back and I love them. I'm happy to hear the new layout has improved things. I do suggest playing with your sub placement though. I would at least compare what you have to the following. Leave the front right sub where it is (or a little more right) and the left sub moved to behind the couch on the left. I would also try the left sub in the left corner (or as far left as you can go) and the right sub behind the couch on the right. In theory, this should provide a more even bass response. You may want to try different toe-in as well on the R3's. Your current toe-in seems pretty drastic but different rooms respond differently. You seem like a pretty busy person but If you find the time you can save $1,500+ on the quoted room treatments. I made 8 of my own with Rockwool and some fabric for around $150. I made movie poster panels for the theater.

If you're happy just enjoy the music. Happy listening.

 

[kolestonin]

Thank you very much for your comments and suggestions.

The verb 'enjoy' is maybe not enough to describe how I like my speakers and my whole setup.
I cannot really recall any other thing I bought in the past that keeps delighting me 6 months after the initial purchase every single day i use it.
This the main reason I abandoned all my room treatment ideas and I also keep postponing to take some measurements.

As for the toe-in I would not call it so drastic. It is a 10 degrees toe-in and it has been done based on trial error(not measurements). KEF's (of course generic)suggestion on the manual is also 10-15 degrees. I keep seeing posts of people suggesting to place the speakers toed-out and I think this is due to Erin's review who says with no doubts at all that speakers sound best when toed-out. I have full respect for Erin and not the 0,001% of his knowledge on sound matters. He can also, contrary to me, support his claims with measurements. I suspect Erin's room is way bigger and I think that toeing the speakers out maybe is not the best on smaller rooms with more narrow boundaries. In my case distance from side walls is not so small(1,40m) but toe-out is definitely giving me the worse result. And I think it is somehow expected that we can't have a golden rule as every room is different and I need to say I am surprised each time I see people giving this suggestion with such confidence and certainty.

I also would like to comment on the grilles as, contrary to any other speaker I owned in the past, I really like them and wanted to use them. But they have a negative effect on the sound on my case. Very difficult to be identified by me in most of the songs. I also don't have any measurements. I have something else though. A 18 years old daughter with some golden(proven in different situations) ears! And she finds the sound better without grilles 10 times out 10 in blind tests performed by me and her sister silently placing the 2 grilles on the same time. She can always tell when the grille is placed by identifying a slight negative impact on the sound.(she also helped me define the toe-in angle mostly confirming my preference as things were more clear in this regard).

My only, first world problem, with this setup from a hobby perspective is that I came to an upgrade dead-end somehow. As I understand I will need to go in the +5000euro range so to have some better sounding speakers. The rest of my equipment is also top notch measuring wise and I don't think any upgrades will have any effect on the listening spectrum. I can say I have a purely Audioscience review system and I want to grab the chance so to say a big thanks to @amirm and all the folks sharing unlimited valuable knowledge in these forums. Changing my two SB-1000pro's with two SB-3000(or two more SB-1000pro's) is my possible next move. Not soon though as I am still more than happy with my current setup and I also think they might be an overkill for a 30 square meters living room. Dirac live is another consideration.

 

[ozzy9832001]

Thank you very much for your comments and suggestions.

The verb 'enjoy' is maybe not enough to describe how I like my speakers and my whole setup.
I cannot really recall any other thing I bought in the past that keeps delighting me 6 months after the initial purchase every single day i use it.
This the main reason I abandoned all my room treatment ideas and I also keep postponing to take some measurements.

As for the toe-in I would not call it so drastic. It is a 10 degrees toe-in and it has been done based on trial error(not measurements). KEF's (of course generic)suggestion on the manual is also 10-15 degrees. I keep seeing posts of people suggesting to place the speakers toed-out and I think this is due to Erin's review who says with no doubts at all that speakers sound best when toed-out. I have full respect for Erin and not the 0,001% of his knowledge on sound matters. He can also, contrary to me, support his claims with measurements. I suspect Erin's room is way bigger and I think that toeing the speakers out maybe is not the best on smaller rooms with more narrow boundaries. In my case distance from side walls is not so small(1,40m) but toe-out is definitely giving me the worse result. And I think it is somehow expected that we can't have a golden rule as every room is different and I need to say I am surprised each time I see people giving this suggestion with such confidence and certainty.

I also would like to comment on the grilles as, contrary to any other speaker I owned in the past, I really like them and wanted to use them. But they have a negative effect on the sound on my case. Very difficult to be identified by me in most of the songs. I also don't have any measurements. I have something else though. A 18 years old daughter with some golden(proven in different situations) ears! And she finds the sound better without grilles 10 times out 10 in blind tests performed by me and her sister silently placing the 2 grilles on the same time. She can always tell when the grille is placed by identifying a slight negative impact on the sound.(she also helped me define the toe-in angle mostly confirming my preference as things were more clear in this regard).

My only, first world problem, with this setup from a hobby perspective is that I came to an upgrade dead-end somehow. As I understand I will need to go in the +5000euro range so to have some better sounding speakers. The rest of my equipment is also top notch measuring wise and I don't think any upgrades will have any effect on the listening spectrum. I can say I have a purely Audioscience review system and I want to grab the chance so to say a big thanks to @amirm and all the folks sharing unlimited valuable knowledge in these forums. Changing my two SB-1000pro's with two SB-3000(or two more SB-1000pro's) is my possible next move. Not soon though as I am still more than happy with my current setup and I also think they might be an overkill for a 30 square meters living room. Dirac live is another consideration.

The biggest upgrade you could get would be to treat the room. For the most part, those issues will remain no matter what speakers you get. (there are obviously some variables).

With a very minimal knowledge, you could build most of the panels yourself and save a fortune. For thicker "corner" traps, you could use a bookcase as the frame and cover that with fabric. I've used those in the past and they work exceptionally well.

 

[kolestonin]

Still didn't give REW a try on the new listening position.

I Got the Dirac live trial though, and made the 17 spots wide measurement.

I don't know yet if I will buy the software but wanted to share my measurements and ask for your comments. Can we make any conclusions?

 

[RickyC34]

Not with the data provided. The first picture shows your L speaker only. It's best practice to measure pre and post-Dirac in REW to compare results.

I do suggest clicking the small circular button close to the two blue squares in the top right. From there you can adjust your target curve or load one of the many Harman curves available. If you load a Harman curve it may push your right curtain all the way to the left. Adjust it back to where your speakers roll off to protect them.

Impulse is above my pay grade.

 

[kolestonin]

Finally found the time to take some REW measurements.

I made 3 measurements in the main listening position.
Red=Left speaker only
Green=Right speaker
Blue=Both speakers

Sharing only the screenshots.
mdat files are available and can be uploaded if you think is necessary.

I just wasn't to be sure my REW settings are correct before moving forward, taking more measurements, sharing them on line etc.

That's why I also added 2 screenshots with my soundcard and measure settings.

Any comment, help, suggestion will be highly appreciated.

 

[OCA]

Finally found the time to take some REW measurements.

I made 3 measurements in the main listening position.
Red=Left speaker only
Green=Right speaker
Blue=Both speakers

Sharing only the screenshots.
mdat files are available and can be uploaded if you think is necessary.

I just wasn't to be sure my REW settings are correct before moving forward, taking more measurements, sharing them on line etc.

That's why I also added 2 screenshots with my soundcard and measure settings.

Any comment, help, suggestion will be highly appreciated.

Use acoustic timing reference
Measure 0-24000Hz range
Can't see your Analysis window but always tick "adjust clock with acoustic reference" with a USB mic

Good luck on your journey!