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My first REW measurements(KEF R3 META)

kolestonin

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I am sharing my REW measurements seeking for conclusions, thoughts, EQ and/or room treatment advise.

What you see are the measurements of my main(2,2m) as well as my secondary(5m) listening position in a 30m2 non treated but really cared(curtains, carpets, furniture, canvas, positioning) room.
1683620767963.png

I took 7 measurements on each position moving the mic 10cm around the initial main placement and asked REW to give me the average.

MLP Average:
1683620827023.png

2nd LP Average:
1683620862082.png

Comparison:
1683620888400.png
 

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maty

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Multitest bookshelf speakers – 2500 Euro – part 3
KEF R3 Meta - Measurements


7 graphs, with distortion too. Very low distortion, H3 dominant.
 

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Purité Audio

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It might be useful to use REW’s ‘room simulation’ feature, input your room’s dimensions and your speaker/listening position, then virtually drag things around looking at how the FR changes, then you can fine tune with the microphone.
Keith
 

alex-z

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Looking purely at frequency response, everything above 200Hz is great. Just have some room modes at 30, 50, and 170Hz. It would be useful to have non-averaged measurements, so that we can look at your decay times. Biggest problem in residential sized rooms is lingering bass response. EQ can fix frequency response but not time domain.

That dip at 100Hz may indicate a problem with your subwoofer crossover slope or phase. It would be useful to also have independent measurements of each subwoofer, and to know what DSP/EQ platform you are using for integration.

Regarding acoustic treatment, my first thought would be full height bass traps for the front corners, and some absorption panels for the side walls, with the panels on the right wall being mounted on sliders so the window can still be used. Some diffusion for the ceiling and back wall would be ideal, but may look out of place in a non-dedicated listening room.
 
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ROOSKIE

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Biggest problem in residential sized rooms is lingering bass response. EQ can fix frequency response but not time domain.
This is not what I have been lead to believe nor reflective of what I hear and measure in room.

Several sources exist however this one ought to be enough as it is Floyd Toole.
"Room resonances at low frequencies behave as minimum-phase systems and properly matched parametric EQ can repair both the amplitude and time domain problems. Off-the-shelf automated "room EQ" or "room correction" programs may or may not be able to do this properly. Many do not."
 

alex-z

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This is not what I have been lead to believe nor reflective of what I hear and measure in room.

Several sources exist however this one ought to be enough as it is Floyd Toole.
"Room resonances at low frequencies behave as minimum-phase systems and properly matched parametric EQ can repair both the amplitude and time domain problems. Off-the-shelf automated "room EQ" or "room correction" programs may or may not be able to do this properly. Many do not."

At a single listening position. The room modes still exist, and the resulting EQ can worsen other listening positions, even 1-2ft distant. OP clearly has two primary listening positions. Acoustic treatment is highly beneficial because it allows the EQ approach described by Floyd Toole to work across multiple seats, rather than the single chair he is discussing in that article.

Multiple subwoofers are also a valid solution, but that creates the problem of time alignment with the speakers, the higher the crossover point, the less flexibility there is with regards to distance. Acoustic treatment, EQ, and multiple subwoofers all compliment each other to create a near perfect system.

Real rooms also have natural high frequency absorption from furniture, carpet, and the humans within. That skews the ratio of direct vs reverberate sound, and adding thick absorption panels allows for a partial correction of that behaviour without resorting to something like dipole speakers.
 

ROOSKIE

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At a single listening position. The room modes still exist, and the resulting EQ can worsen other listening positions, even 1-2ft distant. OP clearly has two primary listening positions. Acoustic treatment is highly beneficial because it allows the EQ approach described by Floyd Toole to work across multiple seats, rather than the single chair he is discussing in that article.

Multiple subwoofers are also a valid solution, but that creates the problem of time alignment with the speakers, the higher the crossover point, the less flexibility there is with regards to distance. Acoustic treatment, EQ, and multiple subwoofers all compliment each other to create a near perfect system.
The 2nd position appears to me to be an anticillary space.
It is tucked around a corner?

OP @kolestonin what is the deal with that 2nd space? You did not photograph it. Are you actually worried about hi fidelity bass reproduction around the corner? I can't see how that will work unless using separate EQ settings. Even then the time/distances diffrences from the subs and speakers with be very off, no treatment can help that. They will be out of phase.(likely part of why 100hrz dip gets larger)

@alex-z and OP, yes the room modes would exist for sounds not produced by the PEQd audio system. Those approaches Toole is using in the article I linked are designed not to use any commercial style room treatment and both do not. Neither would fix a 2nd listening position far away from the main one, but really what would? I don't understand that 2nd spot yet as focus point. I sit in odd spots sometimes but I don't epect my stsero to sound its best when doing so.
In any case OP can likley just make an EQ for both spots and use that setting when sitting in the particular odd zone.
I use PEQ and get a nice big sweet spot for the bass, enough for great side by side listening. (yes ideally it is slightly different when actually exacly in the middle, use extra settings or just be cool with 90% performance which is much better than than no PEQ)

That dip at 100hrz may be SBIR (from the monitor to boundary relationship)and/or as @alex-z mentioned poor sub blending and time alignment and phase alignment issues. OP you may need to play around with the sub blending, even using overlap. Are there 3 subs in there? What are you using here for DSP?

Subwoofers up by the mains can be crossed fairly high if need be. The one by the couch likely needs to be @ or below 100hrz. If that one by the couch is notably closer to you, you ought to use some time alignment, it is possible that sub is canceling output up around 100hrz by being out of sync. If time alignment is not available try equalizing distances to the main position. You can also play with the phase switches though that is not the same as time alignment due to distance issues.
Time alignment between reasonably close distances(such as that corner sub and the R3) becomes less important as you decrease in frequency due to the large wavelengths in fact at 1/4wave distances they merge essentally 100% and even with larger distances the issue is still small below about 60-80hrz, still you might time align the whole system -especially if crossing @ or above 80hrz.

Also remember as you adjust sub output levels relative to the mains the effective crossover changes. You will be adjusting multiple parameters with every single change.

With multiple subs you may have to play a lot to get what you want with each sub having a different setting and PEQ and then a global PEQ on top of that. You also have to decide what frequency to look at the bass in mono and when to allow stereo adjustments on the mains. (I use about 120-150hrz.) You will also need to determine what overall bass level or 'room curve' sounds right in this space, and how much if any overall extra bass boost. This will be different for different approaches , tastes, rooms, especially room size and other important particulars such as playback level(perception of increase on bass is not linear with respect to the midrange, 'right' bass matching at 80db will not be the same at 90db). There is no universal 'curve' here, lots of playing.
You will get there though.

Real rooms also have natural high frequency absorption from furniture, carpet, and the humans within. That skews the ratio of direct vs reverberate sound, and adding thick absorption panels allows for a partial correction of that behaviour without resorting to something like dipole speakers.

Yes and this skewing is what we are accustomed to though in many everyday spaces. Loss of high frequency energy starting above about 200hrz and room gain below about 200hrz. The main philosophy in consumer audio is to accept this, that it can and does sound good and just deal with the major peaks and dips while accepting the so called 'downward trend' of the inroom steady state responces. Bass is not so much reverberate vs direct anyway. It is basically just 'pressure'. The waves are huge, there is little 'direct' sound. Any sense of such comes from spacial ques higher up in the frequency range.

OP, if you go with room treatments for bass, be aware of the size you actually need (likley very, very large)and where they actually need to be placed. Above bass your speakers have been supremely designed to sound right in a typical domestic room with no micro corrections above 200ish hrz. Maybe just a tonal control or tilt if someone had a very hard space.(you don't seem to) I recommend no absorption above 200hrz as that may throw off the wonderful tonal balance built into the R3 loudspeakers , maybe some diffusion/diffraction though to even/spead out hard reflections off the bare walls.
 
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kolestonin

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Thanks, thanks and thanks!

That's the kind of answers I was hoping for when I opened the thread.
As I need to interpret the measurements.
And investigate my options on how I can have an improvement.

I will try to be brief covering most of your questions without quoting each one of you separately.
I am very happy with the sound on MLP.
What I try to achieve is an improvement on MLP touching perfection if possible, but most importantly improve the sound on my 2nd listening position.

I will definitely need to experiment with room simulation feature of REW and get to know the program better.
Also find out how to measure my subs and provide you with the measurements.

My chain is:
windows 10 pc>topping e30>topping pre90>arthur 3409/N2
+
2 SVS SB-1000pro

My settings are way less sophisticated than you might think.
I only use SVS phone app so to set gain to 22db and LPF to 80hz(24db slope).
Having tried all possible combinations of above two options, I would say I am confident my final settings give the best result to my ears.
Still need experiment with SVS app built-in EQ tool though.
I never applied a high pass filter as I also need to do some reading on how to apply it, given my setup does not offer many options.

I am sharing the individual measurements for each position as well as both pictures of the room.
Let me know if I left something uncovered and feel free to ask me some more measurements.

Individual measurements:


 

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TheZebraKilledDarwin

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I am sharing my REW measurements seeking for conclusions, thoughts, EQ and/or room treatment advise.

What you see are the measurements of my main(2,2m) as well as my secondary(5m) listening position in a 30m2 non treated but really cared(curtains, carpets, furniture, canvas, positioning) room.
View attachment 284362
I took 7 measurements on each position moving the mic 10cm around the initial main placement and asked REW to give me the average.

MLP Average:
View attachment 284363
2nd LP Average:
View attachment 284364
Comparison:
View attachment 284365

There is an averaged SPL graph in the REW mdat file only. To analyze measurements frequency and time domain is needed (original sweep measurements).

Edit: there it is, you uploaded it already :cool:
 

TheZebraKilledDarwin

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I am very happy with the sound on MLP.

What I try to achieve is an improvement on MLP touching perfection if possible, but most importantly improve the sound on my 2nd listening position.
:D

As I need to interpret the measurements.
And investigate my options on how I can have an improvement.

I looked at the measurements.
You write, that you want a improvement torwards "perfection". This is understandable, since you are quite happy with the setup currently, so you think, only a little bit is needed...
There is one problem: we always believe it's only a little bit, to achieve the sound we want...

A sound torwards "perfection". What do mean by that?
For example, for me personally dialogue quality and coloration in good sounding cinemas is quite perfect and was something I aimed for.
What do you listen for, what do you want to hear and what are you missing currently?
 
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kolestonin

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:D



I looked at the measurements.
You write, that you want a improvement torwards "perfection". This is understandable, since you are quite happy with the setup currently, so you think, only a little bit is needed...
There is one problem: we always believe it's only a little bit, to achieve the sound we want...

A sound torwards "perfection". What do mean by that?
For example, for me personally dialogue quality and coloration in good sounding cinemas is quite perfect and was something I aimed for.
What do you listen for, what do you want to hear and what are you missing currently?
a sound touching perfection.....some times I am more poetic than necessary
try to forget that

But it's difficult to describe what I look for or what I am missing (or even be sure that I miss something)
Cause as you say, we can believe it's only a bit, but we can't really know or define that bit.
Maybe the reason I believe it's not that much is the fact I already tried all possible placement of my equipment and found what sounds better to my ears.
By having measurement for the first time I was hoping to have a confirmation of what my ears hear is correct, and of course find ways to improve it.
But improve an already good sound. So the chances are I might not need a lot. Maybe some EQ will do the job. Or maybe room moderate treatment is more adequate for my case. Eventually both are necessary. That's what I try to find out.

I will try to reply to your question though.
If I needed to define what I am missing is some bass authority on MLP, and some bass authority+better soundstage and imaging on SLP.
 

TheZebraKilledDarwin

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a sound touching perfection.....some times I am more poetic than necessary
try to forget that

But it's difficult to describe what I look for or what I am missing (or even be sure that I miss something)
Cause as you say, we can believe it's only a bit, but we can't really know or define that bit.
Maybe the reason I believe it's not that much is the fact I already tried all possible placement of my equipment and found what sounds better to my ears.
By having measurement for the first time I was hoping to have a confirmation of what my ears hear is correct, and of course find ways to improve it.
But improve an already good sound. So the chances are I might not need a lot. Maybe some EQ will do the job. Or maybe room moderate treatment is more adequate for my case. Eventually both are necessary. That's what I try to find out.

I will try to reply to your question though.
If I needed to define what I am missing is some bass authority on MLP, and some bass authority+better soundstage and imaging on SLP.

With the measurements this tells me two things:
The perceived lack of bass, despite the sufficiently strong bass response, is not the result of a too weak frequency response, but of the acoustics of your room:
a punchy sound is achieved, if indirect sound is not too loud and if it decays sufficiently fast.
Although it is hard to dampen bass frequencies, the good news is, that we tend to perceive bass as much stronger and more powerful, if the overtones are not reverberating much. That means that if the RT60 is well controlled down to 150-200 Hz, this is enough, to create bass satisfaction and a feeling of a punchy and impressive bass.

The bad news is, the reverberation time of your room is very long (>500 ms). The sound takes way too long to decay. In this case, no matter how powerful or precise the speakers would be, the room turns a "snap" into a "snaaaph" (most bass instruments and bass sounds also have an attack: the more precise and dry the transient of the bassy sound is, the more precise the bass is perceived - think of a car door slam: a center speaker without a sub in a good sounding dry room, will create a more satisfactory feeling of impact and a much better sound of that impact, than a sub extension in a reverberating room).
The recommendation of RT60 not exceeding 300 ms (down to 200 Hz) is probably the most important factor for a satisfactory listening experience.

If the 50 Hz peak is not due to mains hum, this is a room mode which should be cut 10-12 dB with an EQ, too.
 

TheZebraKilledDarwin

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What I forgot to ask: do you tend to have the feeling of a slightly muffled, too voluminous dialogue of male dialogue and do female voices tend to sound clearer, more defined?
 
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kolestonin

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The recommendation of RT60 not exceeding 300 ms (down to 200 Hz) is probably the most important factor for a satisfactory listening experience.
And how this can be achieved? EQ? Room treatment? or maybe a setting related to my sub's integration?
If the 50 Hz peak is not due to mains hum, this is a room mode which should be cut 10-12 dB with an EQ, too.
Is there anyway to find out if this is due to mains hum or no? I can't hear any hum, hiss, buzz or noise from my speakers. Is this enough to say that this cannot be the culprit? Or there is a specific measurement that can confirm it?
What I forgot to ask: do you tend to have the feeling of a slightly muffled, too voluminous dialogue of male dialogue and do female voices tend to sound clearer, more defined?
To be honest I never bothered to notice how human speech sounds as the sound usage of my system is like 95% music and 5% movies/series.
I tried to watch some scenes with male/female dialogues and I would say that what you describe can be valid.
Not sure if I would have noticed it without having read what you wrote though.
 

TheZebraKilledDarwin

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And how this can be achieved? EQ? Room treatment? or maybe a setting related to my sub's integration?
Yes acoustic room treatment. But beign done correctly it would bring a lot.
Is there anyway to find out if this is due to mains hum or no? I can't hear any hum, hiss, buzz or noise from my speakers. Is this enough to say that this cannot be the culprit? Or there is a specific measurement that can confirm it?
If you have made the measurements with all equipment coming fromt he same plug socket, then you know it's not hum. If you had your equipment plugged into different sockets, you may make a test measurement to be sure.

To be honest I never bothered to notice how human speech sounds as the sound usage of my system is like 95% music and 5% movies/series.
I tried to watch some scenes with male/female dialogues and I would say that what you describe can be valid.
Not sure if I would have noticed it without having read what you wrote though.
Yes music is much more forgiving than movies. Before you hear a muffled voice in a song, the movie experience is already very bad.
Keep in mind, that this is only meant as quick fix, it is not meant not replace acoustic treatment.
If you have a parametric EQ, you might want to have look at the peak at 170 Hz:

1684072347430.png


btw: you should learn how a certain frequency sounds like. Get some sine test tones (not sweeps, but static ones - IIRC REW allows to create and export them as WAVs) and have them ready in a folder in your music library.

Now try the 170 Hz. Sounds horrible enough?
It is a very dangerous and ugly range.

In the measurement you see, that you have not only a peak, but this ugly frequency is decaying slower, it stays longer in your room, than the neighbouring frequencies.

With a PEQ you can try to reduce that 170 range, that it no longer is louder than the rest of the midrange (first slice in red).
 
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kolestonin

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I need to learn and try a lot and I really appreciate the guidance you give me:)

Yes acoustic room treatment. But beign done correctly it would bring a lot.
What would you think to be a good approach without making my living room look like a studio?
Some time ago a friend with some knowledge on sound matters who has seen my space(but not my measurements) in a photo(so he did not listen my sound) proposed 2 rectangular 1200X600mm 4″ thick bass traps(one behind each speaker) and 2 rectangular 1200x600mm 2,6'' thick acoustic panels(1 at either side of the lamp).

Do you think this is something that will work?
 

TheZebraKilledDarwin

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It is not easy to make the right decision, when we start a journey, without really knowing what we can expect from that journey.
An experiment costing nothing, but gives a first impression about the impact of the influence of the acoustics in your room and what your speaker is capable of: sit closer to a speaker and place a thick winter blanket over the speaker and your head and listen how the sound changes and the details you start to hear. Matress(es) can also be used on reflection points (a bit more difficult on the ceiling, but very enlightening to get a taste).

Doing acoustic treatment right, is not easy, because absorber material and thickness and also distance from the wall, determine how effective lower frequencies will be absorbed.
 
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