Music: how loud is loud? (video)

[Pdxwayne]

I'm on mobile so my response may be poorly worded but you seem to be missing my point on a lot of these things. The distortions in the mids her mentions are non issues even if they could be better. I support them being done just for the information of that, as I said in my post.

Head room is only important as far as it is useful. How much head room is that though? For me, as long as I don't hear it when listening, I don't care really. I like better because it is cool too me but I'm reality a non issue if it doesn't become an issue.

He refers to live music and concerts, I addressed both. Peak values at both can and will cause hearing loss if loud enough despite his statement that they don't. Again, I have first hand measured the hearing loss in people who played and listened to live instruments. It does cause damage over time. As I said, I find it at odds with what he said so I was hoping to have him clear up to make sure I understood correctly.

I did watch the video and peak values add up if loud enough. I addressed that. The crackle in the Focal are a ordinate issue and was never something I brought up. That happens at lows which I said I found useful. Mids distortion at highest level I don't. Re read my post.

Saying we would see it is a misconception. You might not but I measured hearing for a living for a few years and I did see it. The general population doesn't notice it. I started that in my post, you are the one misunderstanding.

I saw that quote. For constant noise you would, but I am referring to peaks and constant noise. They do add up. I measured people's ears myself. It isn't as bad as a guy working a jackhammer but it happens. Violinists for example tended to lose hearing in the ear closest to the violin faster than the other ear. We only measured up to 8kHz as you have to have special equipment and beyond that wasn't something most work places were concerned with, but the hearing loss was present.

Hmm, violinists and pianists play next to their instruments. Also, if they play in an orchestra, next to other loud instruments. The loudness level should be at least several times of those heard by the audience.

Have you measured people who don't play instruments, but as audience of orchestra?

 

[RichB]

When I listen to (some) music at ~75dBZ average level, momentary peaks hit 107dBZ.

What is a dBZ and how did you measure it?

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Hmm, violinists and pianists play next to their instruments. Also, if they play in an orchestra, next to other loud instruments. The loudness level should be at least several times of those heard by the audience.

Have you measured people who don't play instruments, but as audience of orchestra?

Beethoven went deaf....Just saying

- Rich

 

[Pdxwayne]

Beethoven went deaf....Just saying

- Rich

He listened to orchestra closer than any audience.
; )

 

[devopsprodude]

What is a dBZ and how did you measure it?

- Rich

DBZ?

 

[dorirod]

He refers to live music and concerts, I addressed both. Peak values at both can and will cause hearing loss if loud enough despite his statement that they don't. Again, I have first hand measured the hearing loss in people who played and listened to live instruments. It does cause damage over time. As I said, I find it at odds with what he said so I was hoping to have him clear up to make sure I understood correctly.

Ok, so what exactly is your point? People shouldn't go to concerts at all, go to at most X/year, have a SPL meter and a counter and add up the peaks you experience along with a run meter for each peak? What's the threshold when they reach the max for their lifetime? Everyone takes the risks and hits comfortable to them. Do you think that Amir is saying 0 hearing loss happens due to concert performances?? I'm pretty sure a lot of people would rather lose part of their hearing over the course of a lifetime in trade for some great musical performances. I wouldn't follow every single show of a death metal band in the front row necessarily, but up to 5-10 shows a year for my favorite bands/artists/performances, rows back, I'll take my chances.

I did watch the video and peak values add up if loud enough. I addressed that. The crackle in the Focal are a ordinate issue and was never something I brought up. That happens at lows which I said I found useful. Mids distortion at highest level I don't. Re read my post.

So how do you find when the issue happens in the mids if you don't test it?

Saying we would see it is a misconception. You might not but I measured hearing for a living for a few years and I did see it. The general population doesn't notice it. I started that in my post, you are the one misunderstanding.

I'm pretty sure the general populace would notice it if they couldn't hear people speak to them forever after they went to a couple of concerts. Again, we're back to what degree are you talking about? People in their 40s, 50s, 80s, 90s? Were they roadies? From their personal history, were they only going to concerts/performances (and to how many, and what type of music), or did they do something else? I'm also pretty sure the general populace knows there is hearing loss over time and age. Most people are ok with that, or we'd be wearing hearing protection everywhere we went just in the off chance we got a car backfire or someone set off a firework next to us.

I saw that quote. For constant noise you would, but I am referring to peaks and constant noise. They do add up. I measured people's ears myself. It isn't as bad as a guy working a jackhammer but it happens. Violinists for example tended to lose hearing in the ear closest to the violin faster than the other ear. We only measured up to 8kHz as you have to have special equipment and beyond that wasn't something most work places were concerned with, but the hearing loss was present.

Amir is not a violinist. Do you think he's doing 100 dB mid peaks for 8 hours a day? Again, what's the accumulation that you're worried about? If you have a number that can be discussed ok, but if you're just saying there is increased risk even with short duration peaks, again Amir addressed that too. He said in 20 years he might realise he's done some damage, and he's ok with it. Are you saying it will happen sooner, 5 yrs, 10 yrs, or you don't know so you're saying just in case stop doing what you're doing? Pretty sure people are ok with calculated risk, and Amir is calculating it to be pretty small chance based on papers he's read. If you got a paper that says otherwise, I'm pretty sure we'd all love to see it. No one wants to take unnecessary risks.

 

[abdo123]

What is a dBZ and how did you measure it?

- Rich

It’s Z weighted.

 

[KiyPhi]

Hmm, violinists and pianists play next to their instruments. Also, if they play in an orchestra, next to other loud instruments. The loudness level should be at least several times of those heard by the audience.

Have you measured people who don't play instruments, but as audience of orchestra?

No, unfortunately. Most people who I measured were construction, train drivers, aerospace, or instrument players, places where the employers are either required by law to measure or concerned with the people getting hearing damage. We only worked for companies, not the general public. I did measure concert workers though. They did present with higher than agree related hearing loss. I don't know how close the average worker there would be to the speakers. I don't think I've ever measured a worker for an orchestra despite having a local one that sold out pretty often.

 

[raif71]

He listened to orchestra closer than any audience.
; )

If only that was true but he could have gone deaf due to illness(es)...

from https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/what-caused-beethovens-deafness

 

[dc655321]

What is a dBZ and how did you measure it?

- Rich

dBZ is unweighted.
i.e. dBFS SPL

 

[Clanseven]

Excellent video Amir. Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge. Much appreciated.

 

[CtheArgie]

This was quite interesting. It would have been very helpful to check the calibration of some of the apps and devices used for testing loudness. I use Decibel X with he Z weighted Freq response (flat) in my iPhone. If I change to A weighting, I "lose" around 6 to 7 dBs in loudness.
The important thing for me is that I consitently use the same app to check loudness at concerts and at home. So, if I set a piece to sound as loud as the concert, I can do sow with he same app. I don't think that it will vary the sensitivity much.

Using this app, I don't get the same levels @amirm quotes from the papers, but it must be due to the speed of capturing as he indicates. Be that as it may, I can get "similarity" in volume and this is quite helpful, especially for classical music, as I have used it at Disney Hall. I must admit our seats are never row 6...

By the way, I got angry people at me when using the app for loudness because they think I am making a recording. I was once accused of that and had to show and explain to the staff what I was doing. They were fine. I also use another app to test the tuning of the orchestra prior tot heir playing. Pretty cool.

 

[Sancus]

What is a dBZ and how did you measure it?

Measured at the listening position with REW and a UMIK1. dBZ is flat weighting, as opposed to C or A-weighted which remove some low frequencies. That's a very important distinction because most safety limits are A-weighted, and A-weighting shows about 5-15dB lower than the real output from speakers on most content in my experience.

SPL meters use averaging(fast/slow) so they'll miss very short transients... but the speaker still has to reproduce those and it will certainly distort on them if pushed too far.

The graph below is from REW, LZSmax is the max as if you were using Slow weighting, LZPeak is the true unfiltered/unaveraged highest peak. LZeq is a standard continuous averaging, dbZ(S) is the slow-setting SPL level. These are standard sound measurement terms.

Oh, and this is the Telarc 5.1 recording played on the system listed in my signature(at a volume setting of -15dB).

 

[Clanseven]

Just to add, in my experience, if I listen to any music at home, be it via headphones or loudspeakers, I tend to listen to it at a level that is comfortable and probably at a lower level than most of my friends. For a long time, I have wondered if this is because I have a lower tolerance of distortion or if it's just a biological difference...

 

[RichB]

Just to add, in my experience, if I listen to any music at home, be it via headphones or loudspeakers, I tend to listen to it at a level that is comfortable and probably at a lower level than most of my friends. For a long time, I have wondered if this is because I have a lower tolerance of distortion or if it's just a biological difference...

I had a transistor radio when I was a kid.
It was easy to turn it up too loud.
I have the same reaction, when there is distortion, it is too loud.

- Rich

 

[KiyPhi]

Ok, so what exactly is your point? People shouldn't go to concerts at all, go to at most X/year, have a SPL meter and a counter and add up the peaks you experience along with a run meter for each peak? What's the threshold when they reach the max for their lifetime? Everyone takes the risks and hits comfortable to them. Do you think that Amir is saying 0 hearing loss happens due to concert performances?? I'm pretty sure a lot of people would rather lose part of their hearing over the course of a lifetime in trade for some great musical performances. I wouldn't follow every single show of a death metal band in the front row necessarily, but up to 5-10 shows a year for my favorite bands/artists/performances, rows back, I'll take my chances.


So how do you find when the issue happens in the mids if you don't test it?


I'm pretty sure the general populace would notice it if they couldn't hear people speak to them forever after they went to a couple of concerts. Again, we're back to what degree are you talking about? People in their 40s, 50s, 80s, 90s? Were they roadies? From their personal history, were they only going to concerts/performances (and to how many, and what type of music), or did they do something else? I'm also pretty sure the general populace knows there is hearing loss over time and age. Most people are ok with that, or we'd be wearing hearing protection everywhere we went just in the off chance we got a car backfire or someone set off a firework next to us.


Amir is not a violinist. Do you think he's doing 100 dB mid peaks for 8 hours a day? Again, what's the accumulation that you're worried about? If you have a number that can be discussed ok, but if you're just saying there is increased risk even with short duration peaks, again Amir addressed that too. He said in 20 years he might realise he's done some damage, and he's ok with it. Are you saying it will happen sooner, 5 yrs, 10 yrs, or you don't know so you're saying just in case stop doing what you're doing? Pretty sure people are ok with calculated risk, and Amir is calculating it to be pretty small chance based on papers he's read. If you got a paper that says otherwise, I'm pretty sure we'd all love to see it. No one wants to take unnecessary risks.

My point is that some of the information presented in the video seemed to be either incorrect based on things I have seen/read or was misunderstood. I don't think I made any claims about what people should or shouldn't do. Though if we are strictly speaking about protecting your hearing, you should wear hearing protection any time you are in a situation where you may damage your hearing, including concerts. That was not what I was talking about though.

You are really putting words in my mouth. I said what he said doesn't follow with his premises in some instances of the video and this was despite me supporting his decision to measure the things he does. You asking how I find issues if he doesn't test the mids despite me saying a couple if times now that I support him measuring that high.

You don't understand how hearing loss works if you think people just stop being able to hear people. I really don't think it is worth my time to try and respond on a phone, I'm off work soon, I'll explain more when I have a keyboard and don't have to fudge with this swipe texting.

Edit: Hearing loss works like this, you gradually lose sensitivity to some frequencies, generally higher first, over time. So that curve of sensitivity Amir mentions basically changes it's shape. Instead of having to have a noise a x dB at some frequency to hear it, you may have to have it at x+5dB instead. In some cases you lose that frequency completely but I mainly have only seen that on train operators, military, and drummers. People may have to talk louder for you to hear them but the thing is your brain is really good at adapting. The loss is subtle most of time so your brain picks up on lip movements and fills the missing info in for you. Wearing masks has shown a lot of people that they have more hearing loss than they previously thought. But anyway, the fact that it is gradual and subtle to the person who is losing their hearing is why some companies are required by regulation to test hearing of their employees regularly. They have a set number of dB you can lose per year and be considered acceptable. Go over that and you get anything from a class on how to wear hearing protection to fired for not following safety to a referral to a specialist depending on the company.

Another thing to consider is that voices, especially males, actually have a very low fundamental frequency compared to where hearing loss first starts. For instance, when measuring, most audiometry booths only go up to 8-10kHz unless you get very special systems that cost a ton. A male voice can have a fundamental of 125Hz. If you have 20dB hearing loss at 8kHz, you can still hear someone talk, but you still have hearing loss.

 

[audiofooled]

That'd be loud to run for your life

 

[PierreV]

An interesting hearing test, not audiophile, but practical.

https://www.hear-it.org/Online-Hearing-Test#main-content

Am 58, scored 86%

part of an interesting site on the issue of hearing loss

https://www.hear-it.org/

 

[dorirod]

My point is that some of the information presented in the video seemed to be either incorrect based on things I have seen/read or was misunderstood.

Ok to make this exchange more productive, can you mention which particular statements made in the video are incorrect and why?

 

[Pdxwayne]

An interesting hearing test, not audiophile, but practical.

https://www.hear-it.org/Online-Hearing-Test#main-content

Am 58, scored 86%

part of an interesting site on the issue of hearing loss

https://www.hear-it.org/

Got 92% with phone and headset.