Music: how loud is loud? (video)

[AnalogSteph]

Amir nicely explains one of the reasons I prefer recorded music to live. It's too damn loud.

You bet. I have at times found live concert levels to be borderline too high even with ER-20s in. (Mind you, my ears aren't particularly compatible with triflanges, which doesn't help. Plus my listening levels traditionally are about 10 dB quieter than average, presumably because it seems my ears will distort quite early as well... I tried to annoy my O110s with IMD test tones at one point, turns out my ears were giving up before the speakers produced audible IMD. My peak levels with classical are somewhere in the 90s.)

 

[phoenixsong]

You bet. I have at times found live concert levels to be borderline too high even with ER-20s in. (Mind you, my ears aren't particularly compatible with triflanges, which doesn't help. Plus my listening levels traditionally are about 10 dB quieter than average, presumably because it seems my ears will distort quite early as well... I tried to annoy my O110s with IMD test tones at one point, turns out my ears were giving up before the speakers produced audible IMD. My peak levels with classical are somewhere in the 90s.)

Wait... Isn't hitting those levels with bass-light IEMs even worse?
(Edit: Oh never mind, I presume you meant you were using them as earplugs while attending live concerts, not listening to music through them)

 

[maverickronin]

Wait... Isn't hitting those levels with bass-light IEMs even worse?
(Edit: Oh never mind, I presume you meant you were using them as earplugs while attending live concerts, not listening to music through them)

ER20's are just earplugs.

They are "musician's" earplugs tuned for a flatter attenuation rather than typical hearing protection which disproportionately attenuates high frequencies.

 

[audiofooled]

@amirm

Another great video!

IMHO, peak SPL in the bass region gets too loud only if it exceeds the capabilities of the room, still if we follow the equal loudness curve mids and highs are well within the safe region. So, for any given room volume, having a benefit of a volume control is highly underrated.

On the other hand for me, with headphones is a bit different though. I don't like too much pressure on my eardrums for a longer period of time.

Is there any research with regards to actual live concerts, how much of that SPL is absorbed by the crowd, if any?

 

[ClosDeLaRoche]

ER20's are just earplugs.

They are "musician's" earplugs tuned for a flatter attenuation rather than typical hearing protection which disproportionately attenuates high frequencies.

I saw Richie Hawtin live in 2019 and brought these same earplugs. The subs were up so loud the plugs were vibrating in my ears.

 

[BinkieHuckerback]

...anything above 11

 

[BartekG]

Great video - way more valuable than gear review.
How does that information relate to choosing headphone amplifiers? Should we look at power requirements for 100-120 dB peaks or the average volume we listen at?

 

[Dzhaughn]

Excellent video!

 

[Mnyb]

Great video - way more valuable than gear review.
How does that information relate to choosing headphone amplifiers? Should we look at power requirements for 100-120 dB peaks or the average volume we listen at?

Peaks as it will clip otherwise , remember that dB is logarithmic so if you se the power as curve it's basically all just peaks the average is lower than one might think .

The same goes for speakers people might average like 3 watts to their speakers and still clip their 250watt power amp in some millisecond transient

 

[sweetchaos]

This was my favorite video so far. This clears up so much confusion, that a lot of people online seem to have. Thanks!

 

[RichB]

I can't argue with the SPL information with live concerts and that would be relevant if we had digital source files that represent of these concerts to recreate them at home.

There may be some recording that come close but the vast majority do not. Not even close.
Perhaps, OSHA is far more applicable to popular music with highly compressed range.
Dr. Toole might disagree with the harmless of very loud music, with age comes wisdom.

There are recordings that have bass down to 20Hz but when did this become the definition of bass.
A bass guitar produces between 40Hz and 80Hz. Focusing on this frequency is not representative.
Focusing on 20Hz seems like an over emphasis. Unfortunately, it is becoming less relevant even for HT as many movies are delivered with bass limiting applied below 30Hz.

Most of us are listening to digital files, where 0 DBFS defines the maximum possible SPL.
To determine my listening levels and power requirements, I played 0 DBFS 250Hz, 440Hz, 1kHz, and 2kHz at 2.83 volts (measured with a Fluke multimeter). I used both speakers to get a better baseline and all frequencies were consistent.
Since the Salon2s are basically 4 Ohms, I based the spreadsheet where -31 produced 2.83 volts measured 86 dB at my 11 foot listening position.

The AHB2 clip indicators (bi-amping) the Salon2s confirm these findings, illuminating at -10 tracks, that like most, have no headroom.

I can't speak for others, but based on my measurements and volume settings, I can assure all here that there are no miraculous power requirements nor are there amazing SPL levels coming from these digital sources. I am in fact, listening to movies at under 100dB from the Salon2s. Subs are doing what subs do best.

- Rich

 

[DualTriode]

Hello All,

Just because it is “classic music”, “piano” or “jazz” does not mean that it will not cause “Noise Induced Hearing Loss”.

You need not have an A-weight filtered sound level meter in your hand for 95dBSPL to damage your hearing.

Long Time Engineering Consultant

DT



https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/newsroom/feature/hearingloss.html

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/wp-solutions/2015-184/pdfs/2015-184.pdf

https://www.codepublishing.com/WA/Woodinville/html/Woodinville08/Woodinville0808.html

 

[devopsprodude]

I found my "I can only listen for a short while" levels to be ~96dB. Beyond that I can only listen for a minute or so. My average listening level is ~75dB with peaks ~85dB. So for me, the 104dB measurements do seem irrelevant for anything other than bass. Distortion in the mids at that level won't occur for me in regular music. I know you did mention that you say it for the 1% who will complain that you didn't mention it, but I honestly can say that if they are listening that loud at the referenced frequencies, they are listening too loud.
Edit: fixed swipe texting mistakes. Am on mobile.

The distortion measurements by SPL, particularly the higher dB measurements, are largely there to test design/engineering/quality control, I think. Good designs with good quality control will have lower distortion beyond what most people will drive them at. Headroom is pretty important, I think.

 

[devopsprodude]

First thing is that I would say, as a preface, a lot of us don't have the goal of recreating live music. I for one don't like to go to concerts because I do find them too loud.

Live music doesn't equal concert. And not all concert venues/performances will be uncomfortably loud. But like when I listen to Public Enemy, good equipment makes it sound like Chuck D is in the room with me, or if I close my eyes, that I'm in the recording booth with him. If you listen to Yo-Yo Ma, it should sound like he's in your living room playing just for you, or if it's a live recording, it should feel like you're at the venue listening from the best seat in the house.

 

[Sancus]

I am in fact, listening to movies at under 100dB from the Salon2s. Subs are doing what subs do best.

When I listen to (some) music at ~75dBZ average level, momentary peaks hit 107dBZ.

 

[dorirod]

I found my "I can only listen for a short while" levels to be ~96dB. Beyond that I can only listen for a minute or so. My average listening level is ~75dB with peaks ~85dB. So for me, the 104dB measurements do seem irrelevant for anything other than bass. Distortion in the mids at that level won't occur for me in regular music. I know you did mention that you say it for the 1% who will complain that you didn't mention it, but I honestly can say that if they are listening that loud at the referenced frequencies, they are listening too loud.

This was discussed in the video. Amir did say he's looking for anomalies, and people would want to know when that happens. If you only get a 104dB peak for ms duration, you're not going to find it too loud or harmful, but if you hear a nasty crackle you'd want to know about it before spending $$$ on gear. Maybe you don't care about the peaks either, but it's not 1% of people that care about them, it's much higher. You're free to ignore that section btw I don't get why you'd want to deprive people that want to know about it that information. He has already explained it over and over that in short duration is not harmful.

Even if we assume that someone does want to listen to reproduce live music, there are lots of cases where people who visit concerts do get hearing damage and players of those instruments especially get hearing damage. The number of pianists and violinists with hearing damage I've measured rivals those who drive trains! I'm this case, it would seem to me that the argument that live music, even instruments only, are that loud therefore it is safe to listen that loud doesn't follow.

I think what he's saying is that if short durations could do that kind of damage, we'd be seeing a lot more people with hearing damage than we already do. Yes going to concerts, especially really loud ones, standing close to speakers, will mess up your hearing. I don't enjoy that either. Again, you're missing his point though.

Hearing damage is also generally done over time and not noticable to the person until it is much too late. I've measured people with 20+dB hearing loss who think they have none. So while one or two peaks won't kill your ears am right away, listening at 100dB in the mid frequencies will over time cause damage. In this case, it would appear to me that solderdude's test only shows that people don't accurately guage their listening levels, not that the argument that you shouldn't listen that loud isn't accurate.

Now you're really not paying attention to what he's saying (not sure how often I have to repeat this in the same post, can't imagine Amir and having to address it even after doing a long video on it). How about you rewatch at 38:59 and I quote "At 100 dB at 3 KHz you'd go insane." Does that sound like an invitation to listen to 100dB in mid frequencies

 

[Robbo99999]

Nice video presentation Amir, clearly explained and interesting. I can see your chosen dB SPL levels for your distortion tests make sense and are applicable to music listening - because the measurements are simulating Peak Levels in music & not Average Levels, and the highest 114dB test is mainly there to show the effects of bass EQ on distortion. Yes it's not about going deaf! Not to mention that a lot of tracks have most energy in the bass where are ears are not sensitive and a lot lot less endangered by any given dB SPL level - and how that links in with A-weighted standards of noise exposure safety limits.

Interesting to see the reason you chose 10dB steps in level for distortion testing (94 / 104 / 114) was due to the fact your headphone amplifier has 3 different gain levels that differ each by 10dB, so you can just flip the gain switch on the amplifier and accurately be sure you've quickly & easily just gone up or down 10dB. But I can see those peak levels of 94dB / 104dB / 114dB make sense, and is a good spread.

 

[raif71]

 

[KiyPhi]

This was discussed in the video. Amir did say he's looking for anomalies, and people would want to know when that happens. If you only get a 104dB peak for ms duration, you're not going to find it too loud or harmful, but if you hear a nasty crackle you'd want to know about it before spending $$$ on gear. Maybe you don't care about the peaks either, but it's not 1% of people that care about them, it's much higher. You're free to ignore that section btw I don't get why you'd want to deprive people that want to know about it that information. He has already explained it over and over that in short duration is not harmful.



I think what he's saying is that if short durations could do that kind of damage, we'd be seeing a lot more people with hearing damage than we already do. Yes going to concerts, especially really loud ones, standing close to speakers, will mess up your hearing. I don't enjoy that either. Again, you're missing his point though.



Now you're really not paying attention to what he's saying (not sure how often I have to repeat this in the same post, can't imagine Amir and having to address it even after doing a long video on it). How about you rewatch at 38:59 and I quote "At 100 dB at 3 KHz you'd go insane." Does that sound like an invitation to listen to 100dB in mid frequencies

I'm on mobile so my response may be poorly worded but you seem to be missing my point on a lot of these things. The distortions in the mids her mentions are non issues even if they could be better. I support them being done just for the information of that, as I said in my post.

Head room is only important as far as it is useful. How much head room is that though? For me, as long as I don't hear it when listening, I don't care really. I like better because it is cool too me but I'm reality a non issue if it doesn't become an issue.

He refers to live music and concerts, I addressed both. Peak values at both can and will cause hearing loss if loud enough despite his statement that they don't. Again, I have first hand measured the hearing loss in people who played and listened to live instruments. It does cause damage over time. As I said, I find it at odds with what he said so I was hoping to have him clear up to make sure I understood correctly.

I did watch the video and peak values add up if loud enough. I addressed that. The crackle in the Focal are a ordinate issue and was never something I brought up. That happens at lows which I said I found useful. Mids distortion at highest level I don't. Re read my post.

Saying we would see it is a misconception. You might not but I measured hearing for a living for a few years and I did see it. The general population doesn't notice it. I started that in my post, you are the one misunderstanding.

I saw that quote. For constant noise you would, but I am referring to peaks and constant noise. They do add up. I measured people's ears myself. It isn't as bad as a guy working a jackhammer but it happens. Violinists for example tended to lose hearing in the ear closest to the violin faster than the other ear. We only measured up to 8kHz as you have to have special equipment and beyond that wasn't something most work places were concerned with, but the hearing loss was present.

 

[BinkieHuckerback]

This was OK muted