Musetec Audio (LKS Audio) MH-DA005 Review (DAC)

[Garrincha]

Ok, I don't quite appreciate the hostile tone of some here. What happened to civility? I understand comments like DAC's shouldn't have any sound, etc. I have a degree in electronics so not I'm not naïve. Surely at the end of the day, we buy equipment not for the specs alone but because we listen to it and derive please from such experiences. I would hazard a guess that very few here have actually seen let alone tried the Musetec DAC. It does has some foibles to be sure but all I'm saying is that compared to other gear I've used (hesitant to used the word listened to when talking about DAC's lest I get shot down again), the Musetec is fine. Forget to mention I also own an RME ADI-2 Pro FS B and the Musetec beats that for me too.

So it may well be so. You seem to like expensive dacs with a lot of distortion. Why not? Like expensive old wine that turned into vinegar. If you like it and want to buy it for a lot of money, fine, but please don´t argue that it is in any form better, because based on any objective, scientific criterion it is not.

 

[Veri]

So it may well be so. You seem to like expensive dacs with a lot of distortion.

The musetec is quite likely to be reasonably transparent with no audible distortion though. So even more reason why one's "preference" for it will likely stem from something internal rather than something innate to the DAC...

 

[srkbear]

The musetec is quite likely to be reasonably transparent with no audible distortion though. So even more reason why one's "preference" for it will likely stem from something internal rather than something innate to the DAC...

By “internal” do you mean internal to their skulls, or the internals of the DAC?

 

[AdamG]

By “internal” do you mean internal to their skulls, or the internals of the DAC?

The former, if I may be allowed to represent what @Veri means…

 

[srkbear]

Ok, I don't quite appreciate the hostile tone of some here. What happened to civility? I understand comments like DAC's shouldn't have any sound, etc. I have a degree in electronics so not I'm not naïve. Surely at the end of the day, we buy equipment not for the specs alone but because we listen to it and derive please from such experiences. I would hazard a guess that very few here have actually seen let alone tried the Musetec DAC. It does has some foibles to be sure but all I'm saying is that compared to other gear I've used (hesitant to used the word listened to when talking about DAC's lest I get shot down again), the Musetec is fine. Forget to mention I also own an RME ADI-2 Pro FS B and the Musetec beats that for me too.

Out of curiosity, how are you ABXing the RME with this Musetec—are you bypassing the RME’s headphone amp and using both DACs with the same amplifier, and adjusting both for output voltages? Otherwise I don’t see how to compare a pure DAC like the Musetec with an all-in-one like the RME—the latter is going to add all sorts of audible confounds through its amplification stage and DSP filters…

 

[AudioEd]

Ok, this is my last post on this one. Truly, I understand what has been said here and I'm not questioning Amir's competence at all. I don't believe I did that. Yes, I'm fortunate enough to be able to dabble in expensive gear, so what! If anything, it means I'm not defending some piece of gear simply because I spent money on it. I give to charity so my conscience is clear. We could get all philosophical regarding objectivity v's subjectivity but both are valid viewpoints. Life is mostly subjective anyway it seems to me. Test measurements have a place no doubt but so do the listening experiences of individuals. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to be too fixated on test results, that in real practical terms, mostly make no tangible impact in terms of the listening experience (beyond the realms of audibility). In fact, if one becomes too fixated on test results, can this not in itself compromise a degree of objectivity and result in a subtle subjective bias? Maybe my ears are defective (most likely to a certain degree) as perhaps is the hearing of those others out there who have experienced the Musetec and thought very highly of it - you'll find the comments if you search. Always best to keep an open mind I believe.
Happy hunting for the perfect specs!

 

[srkbear]

Ok, this is my last post on this one. Truly, I understand what has been said here and I'm not questioning Amir's competence at all. I don't believe I did that. Yes, I'm fortunate enough to be able to dabble in expensive gear, so what! If anything, it means I'm not defending some piece of gear simply because I spent money on it. I give to charity so my conscience is clear. We could get all philosophical regarding objectivity v's subjectivity but both are valid viewpoints. Life is mostly subjective anyway it seems to me. Test measurements have a place no doubt but so do the listening experiences of individuals. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to be too fixated on test results, that in real practical terms, mostly make no tangible impact in terms of the listening experience (beyond the realms of audibility). In fact, if one becomes too fixated on test results, can this not in itself compromise a degree of objectivity and result in a subtle subjective bias? Maybe my ears are defective (most likely to a certain degree) as perhaps is the hearing of those others out there who have experienced the Musetec and thought very highly of it - you'll find the comments if you search. Always best to keep an open mind I believe.
Happy hunting for the perfect specs!

Listen, I don’t expect to change your mind here, nor am I disagreeing with you broadly on listening experiences and taste. But this implication that we’re emphasizing measurements over sound is just so wrong-headed and unfair.

I’m going to offer you an example to illustrate what is going on here. Let’s say you had a choice between two pieces of preowned gear that were the same make and model, and decided to take them both to an audio repair shop to get checked out first before choosing which one to buy. Now imagine that your trusted technician told you that one of the two was showing defects in the construction or wiring that were detectable on his measuring instruments—would you insist on listening to the two first to confirm which one you liked better before making your decision?

You may think this analogy isn’t the same, but fundamentally it IS. We expect any two decent DACs to deliver the same decoded master recording to our amplifiers, with the best possible fidelity to the music as it was encoded into a digital file. We turn to measurements to see how accurately a certain DAC achieves that goal, and if one is doing a lousy job of it, we don’t BOTHER to listen to it first to see if we like it anyway, nor do we trust anyone else’s experience who tells us they like the sound of a defective unit.

Obviously I’m using “defective” as a relative term, as this Musetec is getting the job done in the basic sense. But DACs that are producing all sorts of distortion or noise, no matter how much they cost or how elegantly they’re built, might as well be considered defective when compared to others that are performing far better at a fraction of the cost. So please, stop pleading your case that we should waste our money and resources giving the substandard products you bought a try, just so you can feel better about buying a lemon—it’s as simple as that!

 

[Powerbench]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Musetec Audio (LKS Audio) MH-DA005 ES9038 based stereo DAC. It was kindly purchased new and drop shipped to me. It costs US $3,299.
View attachment 207311

At 12 Kg/26 pounds, this is one of the heaviest DACs I have tested. Fit and finish is excellent as you can see in the above picture. That carries to the chunky metal remote:

View attachment 207312

When I plugged the unit in, Windows did not load the class driver for it which means it is not class compliant. I could not find a driver online but a flash drive as shown above comes with an ASIO driver. The internal USB interface is the common but old Amanero. Driver installed but the ASIO driver would not function. The remote was not functional either. I saw a screw driver in the box which I assume is to open its back to put in batteries. What a pain.

When I powered the unit, it started to count down tell me to wait! I glanced at the main board and it seems to have a bunch of supercaps or batteries in that that it must be charging. Anyway, I waited the two minutes for it to get ready.

Musetec MH-DA005 Measurements
View attachment 207314

I couldn't believe these results. Company spec is 10x lower distortion:
View attachment 207315
I changed inputs and measured RCA output:

View attachment 207316

Going with this, performance is unacceptable at any price level these days let alone wht MH-DA005 costs:
View attachment 207317

I suspected the output stage may be saturating so ran a sweep:
View attachment 207318

That is it. We are now very close to rated spec (110 dB vs 114 dB spec) but we can only get there at 1.5 volt output. This is bad.

News gets worse with IMD two-tones:
View attachment 207319

So we not only have output saturation we saw before, but mother of all "ESS DAC IMD hump!" At lower outputs performance drops to that of a $9 phone dongle!

Not all news is bad. Dynamic range for example is excellent:

View attachment 207320

Linearity is perfect:
View attachment 207321

Just when you settle in, here comes the jitter test:
View attachment 207322

There is a DPLL bandwidth setting but that could help internally generated noise sources above. But even if they do, none of the settings should be this bad.

Without the remote working, I could not change filters. Fortunately the default one is what you expect:
View attachment 207323

Multitone test shows rising distortion with frequency which is again disappointing:
View attachment 207324

This in turn shows up in THD+N vs frequency:

View attachment 207325

Conclusions
So easy to fall in the trap of going by looks, price and written specs (as opposed to proper measurements). While doing a few things right, there is a lot wrong with design of MH-DA005. They have an excellent core as far as DAC chip is concerned, but they poorly implement the companion circuits. Instead of focusing to get the basics right, focus seems to be elsewhere (battery bank and such). A shame since the packaging is very nice.

I cannot recommend the Musetec Audio (LKS Audio) MH-DA005. If someone thinks this sample is broken, then get the company to produce the above measurements and I will happy to revisit.

---------
As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

Amir ROCKS!!!

 

[Garrincha]

Maybe my ears are defective (most likely to a certain degree) as perhaps is the hearing of those others out there who have experienced the Musetec and thought very highly of it - you'll find the comments if you search. Always best to keep an open mind I believe.
Happy hunting for the perfect specs!

All these listening experiences are subjective and biased, or could you point out any source of an ABX test where the DAC was favored over another one? If not, it is all hogwash. And as explained by @srkbear, if the specs are worse than in many, even much cheaper, devices, why bother and go ahead? The distortion is maybe even low enough for not being audible, but still worse than in many other dacs for a price tag much higher, it just does not add up. Good specs are not everything, but without reasonably good specs there is nothing (of worth).

 

[fatoldgit]

I must say I respectfully and strongly disagree. First of all, a “power conditioner”? A DAC? Elaborate please. Second, no well-designed DAC, particularly one with this price tag, should be baking in distortion prior to the amplification stage, no matter how pleasing it may be to some people.

It’s perfectly fine that some folks enjoy the “musical” distortions that can be brought about at analog stages such as tubes or vinyl, or even via artificial tube modeling features offered by some DSPs. But I know of no serious audiophile, musician or designer who considers digital distortion aspirational or pleasant (ever heard a guitarist say they love the sound of transistors clipping?)—and even if they did, the job of the DAC is to convert a digital sample back to an analog waveform as faithfully as it possibly can. It’s then each listener’s prerogative to add colorations or distortions to suit their individual tastes. I can’t imagine you believing otherwise, really?

You stated originally that a DAC has no sound cause it is digital and attribute any perceived differences to downstream devices such as amps.

You missed my point in your fenzied reply......that a DAC has an analogue output stage and hence, due to different
analogue output designs (and level of care/skill/parts quality in their implementation) that by definition DAC's can sound different.

Now, that stated, with two DACs that measure state of the art in both the digital and analogue domain.. could we hear any difference when everything else upstream and downstream remains the same... no (unless there is some issue like a weird impedance mismatch between the DAC and some associated downstream device, esp when driving an amp directly).

I used the term power conditioner in the sense that anyone can build a power supply. This is all thats needed for AC to DC rectification but the DC quality would be poor:

So its the conditioning/smoothing/quality of the DC that makes the difference. Everything in audio rides on top of power and as such it is a fundamental component of the sound we hear.

Finally, where in my original reply did I state I enjoy distortion? And you spend a whole paragraph rebutting a point I never made.


Peter

 

[asov87]

Ok, this is my last post on this one. Truly, I understand what has been said here and I'm not questioning Amir's competence at all. I don't believe I did that. Yes, I'm fortunate enough to be able to dabble in expensive gear, so what! If anything, it means I'm not defending some piece of gear simply because I spent money on it. I give to charity so my conscience is clear. We could get all philosophical regarding objectivity v's subjectivity but both are valid viewpoints. Life is mostly subjective anyway it seems to me. Test measurements have a place no doubt but so do the listening experiences of individuals. I don't think it's necessarily a good thing to be too fixated on test results, that in real practical terms, mostly make no tangible impact in terms of the listening experience (beyond the realms of audibility). In fact, if one becomes too fixated on test results, can this not in itself compromise a degree of objectivity and result in a subtle subjective bias? Maybe my ears are defective (most likely to a certain degree) as perhaps is the hearing of those others out there who have experienced the Musetec and thought very highly of it - you'll find the comments if you search. Always best to keep an open mind I believe.
Happy hunting for the perfect specs!

Please see my post #141
I have it, I tested it, I ran an ABX against the smsl su-9n

 

[asov87]

That high praise goes away when you run a real ABX, try it, pleaaaaase!

 

[srkbear]

You stated originally that a DAC has no sound cause it is digital.

You missed my point in your fenzied reply......that a DAC has an analogue output stage and hence, due to different
analogue output designs (and level of care/skill/parts quality in their implementation) that by definition DAC's can sound different.

Now, that stated, with two DACs that measure state of the art in both the digital and analogue domain.. could we hear any difference... no (unless there is some issue like a weird impedance mismatch between the DAC and some associated downstream device, esp when driving an amp directly).

I used the term power conditioner in the sense that anyone can build a power supply but its the conditioning/smoothing/quality of the DC that makes the difference. Everything in audio rides on top of power and as such it is a fundamental component of the sound we hear.

Finally, where in my original reply did I state I enjoy distortion? And you spend a whole paragraph rebating a point I never made.


Peter

First of all, I’m anything but “fenzied” (sic), and I’m not going to go back to your original post and point out where you said what—I read you perfectly fine. I make a concerted effort to assess every post I respond to carefully and thoughtfully, and if I’m unclear about something I read, I ask for clarification—as I did in your case.

And this latest elaboration from you helped me clarify your position even more, thank you—in that it certified my belief that either you haven’t the slightest idea what you’re talking about, or you’re completely incapable of articulating the stuff you have right. This exchange is a bust—let’s just shake hands and save others from our derailing this thread.

 

[BDWoody]

...that a DAC has an analogue output stage and hence, due to different
analogue output designs (and level of care/skill/parts quality in their implementation) that by definition DAC's can sound different.

Now, that stated, with two DACs that measure state of the art in both the digital and analogue domain.

What is it you think is being measured? He doesn't break out the chip and measure it apart from the output stage. The results on the meter are the final result from the same output the user plugs his cables into. You seem to believe that is somehow left out.

If there are clearly audible differences between these devices in the context of listening to actual music, that would be apparent through the measurements.

 

[antcollinet]

I think people need to read the *context* of a reply (IE understand what the post is replying to) rather than trying to read just a reply standalone without referencing the conversation.

Many misunderstandings would be avoided.

 

[Wino]

Why so much vitriol over a DAC. I own the musetec 005. Still debating on my impressions of it, but is still just a DAC that allows me to listen to music. I also own the Gustard X26 Pro and will A/B is then I have the time. While sound characteristics are something that can be debated... I do not appreciate Musetec publishing erroneous specs. I hope the unit received by ASR is an anomaly. However, everyone, including the people on Audiogon need to take it down a notch. Someone is referring to Amir on Audiogon as "the muslim". WTF...

 

[fatoldgit]

What is it you think is being measured? He doesn't break out the chip and measure it apart from the output stage. The results on the meter are the final result from the same output the user plugs his cables into. You seem to believe that is somehow left out.

If there are clearly audible differences between these devices in the context of listening to actual music, that would be apparent through the measurements.

Maybe you and @srkbear perceive me as a troll or "one of them"... hence your reactions to my posts.

I dont understand your point... "You seem to believe that is somehow left out."

All I have stated is that a DAC has both a digital and analogue component (hence my reference to no subjective difference between two SOTA DAC's measuring the same in the digital and analogue domain)... to which you state 'He doesn't break out the chip and measure it apart from the output stage.". Of course, I aint stupid and why would/could anyone distort what I said to assume I think Amir does.

Sure... but he measures jitter... which is a digital measurement, he measures other metrics from digital outs (which is not part of the analogue domain).

In the past, professionally (in a highly technical environment), no one (that I know of) has not understood my presentations/white papers... I am 60 years old so I dont think my ability to write English and present ideas has diminished any... so I am at a loss to understand why my simple points get misconstrued.

Maybe I need to ring fence my comments with lots of detail to negate them being misconstrued... but I had assumed a level of basic understanding that might not exist here (eg. using power conditioner as opposed to power supply... as I noted, any fool [even me], can build a rectifier but its the down stream conditioning that makes or breaks it)

Anyways, while never a prolific poster on ASR I will cease and desist posting in the future on any thread and become a silent lurker.

Its no skin off my nose as the above exchanges are a reason why I dislike posting... stuff gets mis-understood/agenderized that wouldnt happen in a face to face conversation.

Peter

 

[srkbear]

Maybe you and @srkbear perceive me as a troll or "one of them"... hence your reactions to my posts.

Its no skin off my nose as the above exchanges are a reason why I dislike posting... stuff gets mis-understood/agenderized that wouldnt happen in a face to face conversation.

Peter

No one has ever accused you of being stupid or a troll; all I have done is disagree with your hypotheses. And unlike you, I cannot build a rectifier, so I must be a fool per your definition.

All I ask before you go is to explain what “agenderized” means in this context, and what it means period.

 

[SubsonicLurker]

No one has ever accused you of being stupid or a troll; all I have done is disagree with your hypotheses. And unlike you, I cannot build a rectifier, so I must be a fool per your definition.

All I ask before you go is to explain what “agenderized” means in this context, and what it means period.

I believe he meant, "agendized"

 

[fatoldgit]

I believe he meant, "agendized"

Indeed I did..

Also.. and to my point about the written word not providing the nuance of the spoken word, I was not implying that you were a fool

If we were having a spoken conversation I am sure the implication/tonal inflection would indicate that I was the fool.

I am a sarcastic person but its mainly self reflective (ie taking the piss out of myself). Unfortunately this self reflective nature doesnt translate well from the spoken to the written word.

Anyways... life goes on and its too short to waste writing forum posts (and please dont infer that I think you are wasting your time posting!!!!!... again its self reflective on myself)

So adios (without the prospect of meeting up again)

Peter