MUM-10 STUDIO MONITORS

[Bfeebabes]

Disparaging comments regarding scientific requirements for evidence don't equate to good-faith arguments. Science put a man on the moon, and developed GPS, enabling the creation of the cell-phone satellites that we use and enjoy, among many things.



There have been many historical catastrophes associated with people ignoring the early evidential signs of deficiency. In the scientific community, this has led to a wariness of claims for which there is what is considered insufficient proof. As the merchandise for which claims have been made has become more and more complicated, dependence on evidence has become more and more critical. It's simply a mind-set considered necessary for gathering and evaluating evidence. It's not personal ... in fact, just the opposite. It's dispassionate.

Here is a page of examples of decisions made with a low level of evidence:

10 Rare Old Medicines That Had Horrific Side Effects

Medicine has come a long way from the "good old days" of garlic-filled masks and astringent herbal teas. Even in relatively recent times, drugs have been

listverse.com

This attitude may seem to be a burden to people who don't fully agree with the stringency and discipline of the Scientific Method. We understand that. There are many, many sites on the web for people who do not see value in scientific rigor.

This is not one of them. As I said, it's not personal.

Good grief. Thanks for sci-splaining...i have a physics degree. I like good science...i like evidence...i like good engineering...i don't like dogma and fixed mindsets which think only spinorama's give sufficient evidence. Reason is key and Reasonable people would investigate, listen to what they say, gather evidence that the guys at pdp are great recording engineers, great at making the latest and greatest raw materials into high value products and appreciate that a small business may not have the time or resources to prioritise spinorama's....not just write them off without doing any of this. That would be good science...not dogma. Anyhoo, no skin in this game just providing balance.

 

[PGansz]

Good grief. Thanks for sci-splaining...i have a physics degree. I like good science...i like evidence...i like good engineering...i don't like dogma and fixed mindsets which think only spinorama's give sufficient evidence. Reason is key and Reasonable people would investigate, listen to what they say, gather evidence that the guys at pdp are great recording engineers, great at making the latest and greatest raw materials into high value products and appreciate that a small business may not have the time or resources to prioritise spinorama's....not just write them off without doing any of this. That would be good science...not dogma. Anyhoo, no skin in this game just providing balance.

How long does it take to ship one to Amir or Erin so a spin can be produced? 2-4hrs total and you potentially gain dozens of new customers? Seems worth it to me - no "balance" needed!

 

[markstein]

As I've said in every post so far on various forums, and this shall be my last as it's like talking to a brick wall - as we know that forums are nothing but negative - every customer who has our speakers is happy and achieving better mix results than ever before. I am not going to bend over backwards to make people on forums happy. We have what we need, and we work with it. If I were getting 9 refunds a week, I'd be concerned.

There are no excuses, we just don't have spinorama data. (Not that any paying customer has ever asked for it). I understand speaker design is science. What goes on behind closed doors here doesn't have to be shared on forums.

Thanks.

EDIT:

The only benefit from me being on this forum is to correct people who are making up their own information. Earlier on there was a claim we measure at 1/6 smoothing. That is NOT what happens. We measure at 1/48. I was merely asked what the smoothing of the graph I presented was, and my words were then taken as something completely else. If you can't carry information I give with any accuracy, what hope is there?

Sorry but this statement is denial of state of the art science and nothing more than anecdotal marketing bla bla....

 

[Somafunk]

How long does it take to ship one to Amir or Erin so a spin can be produced? 2-4hrs total and you potentially gain dozens of new customers? Seems worth it to me - no "balance" needed!

Not to defend them but there is certainly no lack of customers/studios buying them after recommendations from other users

I believe they have sent a set of their monitors to the University of Salford who have one of the best audio science programs and anechoic chambers in the country so expect test results at some point

 

[Penelinfi]

Good grief. Thanks for sci-splaining...i have a physics degree. I like good science...i like evidence...i like good engineering...i don't like dogma and fixed mindsets which think only spinorama's give sufficient evidence. Reason is key and Reasonable people would investigate, listen to what they say, gather evidence that the guys at pdp are great recording engineers, great at making the latest and greatest raw materials into high value products and appreciate that a small business may not have the time or resources to prioritise spinorama's....not just write them off without doing any of this. That would be good science...not dogma. Anyhoo, no skin in this game just providing balance.

Tbh you don't seem to write arguments like you've got a degree in physics. No skin in this game but you sure came in blazing fresh off the bat!

Btw if they're going to try and sell a lot of $10k speakers, it really wouldn't be that hard for them to send a built speaker or with all driver choices, to someone with a Klippel to measure the raw response, then they can simulate with more accuracy in virtuix cad etc.
And the best part is that they can still tune to "translates well" by ear afterwards.

Of course, it seems that you can also sell anything as long as you convince people you're "pro producers". A counter argument is that pros could use a wide variety of different monitors and still translate well, meaning that if they create a monitor, it may not actually work so well for "less pro" people

 

[Jim Taylor]

Good grief. Thanks for sci-splaining...i have a physics degree. I like good science...i like evidence...i like good engineering...i don't like dogma and fixed mindsets which think only spinorama's give sufficient evidence. Reason is key and Reasonable people would investigate, listen to what they say, gather evidence that the guys at pdp are great recording engineers, great at making the latest and greatest raw materials into high value products and appreciate that a small business may not have the time or resources to prioritise spinorama's....not just write them off without doing any of this. That would be good science...not dogma. Anyhoo, no skin in this game just providing balance.

Please point out the post where someone said that ONLY spinoramas give sufficient evidence. I missed that one.

What I would offer is that spinorama (CTA-2034) is a format that offers a collection of critical information that makes collective (and interacting) characteristics more obvious.

Let's say you went to the government with a new cartridge, looking for acceptance by the Army ballistics lab. The first thing you would be asked is, "Do you have the drop/drift tables?" If you did not have them, you would most assuredly be shown the door.
You could say that 100 customers had shot the cartridge and every one of them liked it ... there were no complaints. You could say that every shooter hit his target. You could tell the Army lab that there were a lot of things more important than a drop/drift table, such as a temperature/pressure profile. I can tell you from personal experience that the lab personnel would not be impressed.

This is not because the drift/drop table tells everything that needs to be known, but because it is the standard of comparison that tells the most critical preliminary information that the Army lab uses to pass judgement ... pass or fail. Same with spinorama.

So I would say that insisting on evidence constitutes neither "dogma" nor "fixed mindsets." It's simply part of doing business.

 

[posvibes]

25x the price and only slightly better than the Kali LP-6v2. SAD!

No, not sad, I cheer, I rejoice, my pair of JBL305p mkii's (new) and Kali-LP8's (second hand) cost me combined just under AUD$900.00.

 

[JaapD]

What surprises me is that several people here are asking (sometimes it looks like demanding) for Klippel test evidence. Many of them will never be potential customers in the first place. Tire kickers as someone else mentioned here.

Now what’s the point of requiring/requesting/demanding Klippel data when you’re never going to be a (potential) customer? To try to 'outsmart' someone with your statements? Let me tell you that I’m not impressed at all.

What I see here is that the company involved seems a rather new one, very committed to delivering a good product, and being open for discussions and critique. Of course such a new company, as any other one, is learning by doing, incrementally improving their product portfolio. I also see that they are very customer oriented, by providing free of charge firmware fixes to the install base.

I have no business with this company and won’t be a potential customer. But I appreciate their efforts, commitment and drive to bring something new to the established market. I wish them all the success they deserve!

 

[JaapD]

Please point out the post where someone said that ONLY spinoramas give sufficient evidence. I missed that one.

What I would offer is that spinorama (CTA-2034) is a format that offers a collection of critical information that makes collective (and interacting) characteristics more obvious.

Let's say you went to the government with a new cartridge, looking for acceptance by the Army ballistics lab. The first thing you would be asked is, "Do you have the drop/drift tables?" If you did not have them, you would most assuredly be shown the door.
You could say that 100 customers had shot the cartridge and every one of them liked it ... there were no complaints. You could say that every shooter hit his target. You could tell the Army lab that there were a lot of things more important than a drop/drift table, such as a temperature/pressure profile. I can tell you from personal experience that the lab personnel would not be impressed.

This is not because the drift/drop table tells everything that needs to be known, but because it is the standard of comparison that tells the most critical preliminary information that the Army lab uses to pass judgement ... pass or fail. Same with spinorama.

So I would say that insisting on evidence constitutes neither "dogma" nor "fixed mindsets." It's simply part of doing business.

No it isn't. The military market, like for instance also the medical market, shall adhere to official rules and regulations. Spinorama isn't a regulatory requirement for the audio market. No pass/fail criteria on this one for bringing a product to the market. On the other hand CE is ....... for applicable countries, but that's not 'audible' so may not be something of your interest

 

[FrantzM]

What surprises me is that several people here are asking (sometimes it looks like demanding) for Klippel test evidence. Many of them will never be potential customers in the first place. Tire kickers as someone else mentioned here.

Now what’s the point of requiring/requesting/demanding Klippel data when you’re never going to be a (potential) customer? To try to 'outsmart' someone with your statements? Let me tell you that I’m not impressed at all.

What I see here is that the company involved seems a rather new one, very committed to delivering a good product, and being open for discussions and critique. Of course such a new company, as any other one, is learning by doing, incrementally improving their product portfolio. I also see that they are very customer oriented, by providing free of charge. firmware fixes to the install base.

I have no business with this company and won’t be a potential customer. But I appreciate their efforts, commitment and drive to bring something new to the established market. I wish them all the success they deserve!

Based on this logic, there would be very few review sites (or discussions forum , for that matter). Those who remain, would be "manned" by A.I. that would work out "reviews" for the "potential customers", whose interest is based on, "needs", manufacturer's data or the advices of audiophiles gurus...
Interesting universe that would be.

Peace.

 

[Purité Audio]

We would have got away with it if it wasn’t for those pesky measurements.
Keith

 

[LuckyNat]

Based on this logic, there would be very few review sites (or discussions forum , for that matter). Those who remain, would be "manned" by A.I. that would work out "reviews" for the "potential customers", whose interest is based on, "needs", manufacturer's data or the advices of audiophiles gurus...
Interesting universe that would be.

Peace.

Uh? Your post only makes sense on the basis you believe these forums, or "review sites" (I'm not sure what those are, online versions of magazines, like WhatHifi.com? ) are there solely to assess every single tiny claim of every audio product ever released .

Well, if you've ever spent any time elsewhere on the internet, you'd know that these discussion forums have been thriving for like two decades already ..

ASR is the very first forum I have come across who's foundations are built on the systematic, objective testing of whatever the users, or site owner chooses to test.. mostly stemming from the desire to debunk "audiophile culture" and audiophile snake oil . It's relatively unique.

Never before, as a theme running throughout a forum, have Spinorama measurements been demanded of speaker manufacturers else those manufacturers be publically be accused of being dishonest until they comply .. and only if the results are exemplary in the opinion of the forum members.

Its quite a toxic vibe .. sadly reflective of a now typical attitude on social media as a whole, a mindset that is essentially antithetical to the scientific method for which it is *essential* not to jump to conclusions without evidence, let alone follow those jumps with deeply emotional reactions..

 

[LuckyNat]

What surprises me is that several people here are asking (sometimes it looks like demanding) for Klippel test evidence.

The big irony here is that *no-one* was insisting on Spinorama CTA-2034 measurements before Klippel promoted their scientific commercial *product* ..

.. a product who's cost is SO astronomically high, that if it were a hifi product, it would be the focus of so much vitriol .. LoL

 

[Pete James]

Apparently the MUM10 price is going up from £10k to £12k soon. What a bargain. Imagine if they didn't have a direct to consumer model.

 

[LuckyNat]

Yeah, I saw that .. I wonder if the Beryllium drivers have increased in price?

 

[Palmer]

Apparently the MUM10 price is going up from £10k to £12k soon. What a bargain. Imagine if they didn't have a direct to consumer model.

At that price, though - there are contenders... £12k with amplification, per pair...

 

[Pete James]

At that price, though - there are contenders... £12k with amplification, per pair...

I’m just poking fun at their marketing saying they were looking for a budget way to make an atmos setup and how much better value they are compared to ATC and PMC because of their ‘direct sales model’. All BS really…they are one of the most expensive monitors on the market for their given driver size.

 

[Puddingbuks]

“direct sales” is just like “organic” or “fair” products. Organic food that cost 50 cent more to make, will result in a 100 cent price increase. Fair chocolate costs 20 cents extra, but your pay 100 cents extra. The middle man money in the direct sales model goes into the pocket of the producer, not in the customers. Sorry, just my thoughts.

 

[AnalogSteph]

If you're a boutique manufacturer not blessed with economy of scale or cheap labor in far-away lands, that may be just the ticket to remain in business, mind you.

 

[LuckyNat]

I’m just poking fun at their marketing saying they were looking for a budget way to make an atmos setup and how much better value they are compared to ATC and PMC because of their ‘direct sales model’. All BS really…they are one of the most expensive monitors on the market for their given driver size.

Why is bass driver size the thing you use as a comparator ? It's not a pizza .. and even with pizzas, why would diameter be how you judge value ?

In either case, you have to be quite disinterested in pizzas or audio playback to judge by those metrics (you just want to fill your stomach, or you just want any old sound in the room and the traditional speaker aesthetic).

I imagine - correct me if I'm wrong - that's the crux here .