• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Multiple subwoofers using high level input?

HammerSandwich

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 22, 2018
Messages
1,137
Likes
1,498
A high-level output's crossover would depend on the speaker load. It's the same issue as building DIY speakers with a generic crossover board.

And $40 is a lot of money for 4 resistors. You could DIY the same thing for 10% or so - it's simply a voltage divider.
 

pozz

Слава Україні
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
4,036
Likes
6,827
I'm not advocating for Griesinger's view myself, but FWIW it's largely to do with phase as opposed to amplitude.

The idea is laid out in this powerpoint presentation, and some more detail can be found in the papers on his website. I think his ideas need to at least be taken seriously until they are experimentally tested (it's been a few years since I looked into this though, so the memory is a little hazy now).

EDIT: just found another interesting link, this time a video.
I'm glad you posted this. I drift back to Griesinger's ideas once in a while. He's basing his points on Blauert's Spatial Hearing. Specifically, for low frequencies, spaciousness occurs when ITD fluctuates between 3Hz and 10Hz. What Griesinger calls spaciousness is also called localization lag, blur or strength elsewhere if you want to look for more references. This idea came out of testing the effects of lagging sounds like reflections and masking (inability to localize precisely can be interpreted as a kind of post-masking), and the attempt to establish a minimum audible angle (MAA) on the azimuth (in the lab, about 1° horizontally and roughly 4° vertically). At low frequencies, since we are relatively insensitive to level changes but sensitive to the timing information, the key variation will be interaural timing difference or ITD.

To be completely clear, he is not saying that you can hear 3Hz. He's saying that any musical signal will have fluctuating levels and phase: the effect of this fluctuation at low frequencies translates into a type of semi-localization during which we cannot precisely pinpoint the sound but are aware that it is external, rather than being centered on the listening position in a mono setup.

He has a few further points about why this fact is not more well-known:
  • Recording engineers have generally mono'ed the bass for various reasons (limitations of vinyl and FM radio, effects of phase on definition and clarity when mixing basslines and drums).
  • Studios are designed to have mono bass. I'm not completely clear on his reasoning, but it's to do with low reverberation times and mode excitation with subwoofers.
  • Home listening systems are not set up to allow stereo bass (e.g., single sub, corner placement, instead of two subs directly at the sides of the listening position).
But, as you said, I don't know of studies which have quantified spaciousness/envelopment specifically. Surround sound literature will likely have good sources.

Griesinger also has this Dropbox link to his test signals for spaciousness, the minimum criteria for which is a wandering sound rather than a fixed one. I'd be curious about your impressions.
I made a dropbox folder which has the audio examples, and the .wav files for a test CD that has test tones in 1/3 octave frequency bands. These are very useful for testing a room for stereo bass. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0xxrfcseeexrizn/AAB9nwIFNJgtYIwQ490g5txta?dl=0
I'm personally interested in this since I'd like to understand the limits of stereo precision. I've read before that localization for broadband sounds is also a function of spectral differences (this is how monoaural cues work, for example, when the sound source is directly in front of the listener), and that high frequency cues in general may be a better indicator of location than low. Though since these comments were more to do with studies of free-field acoustical events than localization control or reproduction in stereo, they aren't strictly speaking relevant.
 

QMuse

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 20, 2020
Messages
3,124
Likes
2,785
  • Home listening systems are not set up to allow stereo bass (e.g., single sub, corner placement, instead of two subs directly at the sides of the listening position).

How can bass below 80Hz be "stereo" when directivity of speakers in that range is zero?
 

pozz

Слава Україні
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
4,036
Likes
6,827
How can bass below 80Hz be "stereo" when directivity of speakers in that range is zero?
As I said in the post, ITD.
 

Kal Rubinson

Master Contributor
Industry Insider
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2016
Messages
5,303
Likes
9,865
Location
NYC

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,406
Griesinger also has this Dropbox link to his test signals for spaciousness, the minimum criteria for which is a wandering sound rather than a fixed one. I'd be curious about your impressions.

Thanks @pozz for the excellent summary. I wasn't aware of the test signals. Will have a listen to them as soon as I can. What was your impression after listening to them?
 

pozz

Слава Україні
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
4,036
Likes
6,827
Thanks @pozz for the excellent summary. I wasn't aware of the test signals. Will have a listen to them as soon as I can. What was your impression after listening to them?
There's music, but the contrived signals are the really interesting bit: correlated (mono) and decorrelated narrow-band low frequency noise.

I'm limited to headphones/IEMs right now, and I had to listen a few times until I picked up the cues. From 100Hz to 50Hz I can hear, with declining clarity, head-centered sound vs. sound all around. At 40Hz, which is the lowest he includes, I have trouble picking up the difference. The most confusing feature is the fluctuating amplitude, which I tend to lock onto and which masks, when I'm focused on it, the directional cues. It's not magic—it won't expand the soundstage outside of the regular boundary of your system—but it is proof enough for me to keep digging. I'd like specifically to understand how to create that effect for my sample library across the entire frequency range.

It really feels like this effect is hitting the limit of stereo space in a synthetic/studio environment, in a non-binaural setting.
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,406
There's music, but the contrived signals are the really interesting bit: correlated (mono) and decorrelated narrow-band low frequency noise.

I'm limited to headphones/IEMs right now, and I had to listen a few times until I picked up the cues. From 100Hz to 50Hz I can hear, with declining clarity, head-centered sound vs. sound all around. At 40Hz, which is the lowest he includes, I have trouble picking up the difference. The most confusing feature is the fluctuating amplitude, which I tend to lock onto and which masks, when I'm focused on it, the directional cues. It's not magic—it won't expand the soundstage outside of the regular boundary of your system—but it is proof enough for me to keep digging. I'd like specifically to understand how to create that effect for my sample library across the entire frequency range.

It really feels like this effect is hitting the limit of stereo space in a synthetic/studio environment, in a non-binaural setting.

I'm looking forward to listening. Might be a while though, as for the past month I've been stranded at my parents' place in Australia, unable to return home to Germany due to travel restrictions/flight cancellations, and my best "sound system" is a pair of iphone earbuds ;)

BTW though, do you have a link to a more detailed description of what each recording is? Would like to know what he's done to generate/manipulate each signal.
 
OP
K

Koeitje

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2019
Messages
2,306
Likes
3,965
I actually might have an even better option: the headphone out. Its volume controlled and doesn't mute my speakers (unless I want to) if you plug something in. The cable will look ugly going across the front, but it should work right?
 

ezra_s

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 23, 2020
Messages
293
Likes
327
Location
Spain
not sure how many times I will have to read this entire thread to understand anything, will keep trying though.

Considering two subwoffers now also, but no clue how I would connect them, If I underatnd correctly you can connect them with speaker cables that at the same time can connect to next subwoffer and then to the speakers? Anyone has a picture? :facepalm:
 

Zedly

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 9, 2020
Messages
192
Likes
352
You want to get a subwoofer with both Line In and Line Out connectors. You connect an RCA cable (not speaker cable) from the Subwoofer output on your receiver to the Line In on the first subwoofer. Then connect an RCA cable from the Line Out of the first subwoofer to the Line In of the second subwoofer.
 
Top Bottom