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Multiple devices vs single processor ?

S

spaace

Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2018
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Hi,

For a person re-hauling their current setup (the preamp+crossover part) what would be the way to go wrt no of devices?

When i started out i put together my 2.1 setup using a very old Yamaha receiver (A2070) to serve as the preamp + amp. I am considering replacing the amplification now using the hypex uc400 kit.

But when i take out the old AVR from the chain, I will now have to find something else to perform the volume control and the provide the sub outputs.

When considering the upstream enhancements to achieve the above, I am split between retaining the option to upgrade, by getting multiple devices (dirac unit + dac with vol control + digital crossover ) vs getting a single unit that does all of this like say SHD miniDSP or DEQX (too expensive) or a good reciever (?).

Iam not sure how much of an audible degradation can happen due to the multiple units and the ad-da conversion in the standalone crossover. The single unit seems to avoid all of these but they invariably will be expensive / hard to replace & i do have a hunch they might measure worse than standalone units for their individual functions.

Any thoughts?

Thanks a LOT in advance for your help

Thanks
Arun

ps : In case anyone has suggestions to optimize the setup (vis via price retaining reasonably good quality) here is what i had planned for the multiple device setup

RME ADI-2 DAC or DAC3 (all i need is a good DAC that double as a good preamp with multiple digital inputs + volume control)
crossover - ashley protea 4.8 (want sub outputs and possibility to play around with creating better sub integration)
Dirac - minidsp - DDRC - 22D (want room correction)


vs

miniDSP SHD (preamp + crossover + DAC + Dirac)
 
I would agree with Amir, as personally got into single receiver wagon. But so far none of these integrated solutions showed particularly good measurements. So, if u care about measurements, the only solution will be to have a dedicated devices, lots of PSUs, lots of cables.
 
MiniDSP SHD has excellent audio performance and will take care of every aspect other than amplification.

There are cheaper ways to do things of course, but these are going to be more complicated.

And you will not be able to get audibly better audio quality out of any other more complex (or even more expensive) solution.

Indeed, the more complex solution you propose in the OP is not only far more expensive, but will also almost certainly lead to objectively inferior audio performance due to the multiple DA/AD conversions - although to be fair, this is not likely to translate into any audible concerns IMO.
 
Thanks a lot folks. So all that remains now is to find some subjective reviews of the shd since they dont seem to do returns.

Please do point me out to folks on this forum if you know anyone, who might have got one and have had some experience with it as a preamp.

Suggestions of alternatives with similar functionality is also welcome.

Thanks again.

Ps : can someone please explain why the extra ad-da is of no concern in the alternative proppsed in the OP ?

Is ad-da performed on an analog signal somehow less critical than da performed on an external digital signal ? Is there a rarionale here like say for eg
the ad-da done as part of processing is somehow safer maybe coz the same clock is used for the ad and da etc ?
 
spaace said:
Ps : can someone please explain why the extra ad-da is of no concern in the alternative proppsed in the OP ?

Is ad-da performed on an analog signal somehow less critical than da performed on an external digital signal ? Is there a rarionale here like say for eg
the ad-da done as part of processing is somehow safer maybe coz the same clock is used for the ad and da etc ?
Click to expand...

Not at all ;) Rather, there's simply a widespread misconception in the world of audiophilia that good DA's sound different from one another.

The truth is that competently designed DACs perform significantly better than the human hearing system's abilities to hear noise and distortion.

The DAs in the MiniDSP SHD and RME Adi-2 DAC produce far lower levels of noise and distortion than humans are capable of hearing, as demonstrated by the measurements published elsewhere on this site referenced against our knowledge of the human auditory system based on decades of research in the field of psychoacoustics.

The DAs and ADs in the Ashley Protea and the DDRC-22D, on the other hand, are an unknown quantity (have not been measured to my knowledge), so it's not possible to say the same in respect of them. However, assuming there is nothing drastically wrong with the designs, I think it's fair to say that any noise and distortion they might produce would be quite likely to also fall below thresholds of audibility, or at least very close.

All in all, however, the all-in-one solution is safer because the device in question has already been measured and we know exactly how well it performs (much better than we can hear), vs various unknowns in the more complex suggested setup.

Moreover, you should take into account the fact that - even if all the devices in the complex setup were capable of transparent audio reproduction (which is as I say quite likely) - gain staging would still need to be implemented correctly to ensure that they were operating optimally. Correct gain staging is certainly far from impossible, but it's an added variable that you could get wrong with the more complex setup, but that you will only be able to get right with the single-box solution.
 
Brief final point: I wouldn't seek out subjective reviews of the SHD if I were you. We know objectively that it has no sound signature whatsoever. So any opinions expressed about how it allegedly sounds are likely to be the result of either (a) comparisons with devices that do have an audible sound signature (i.e. incompetently/artistically designed devices) or (b) extrinsic psychological factors.

You said in the OP that you were seeking to avoid audible degradation of the signal, which I presume means that you want a device or devices that don't produce audible noise or distortion.
 
andreasmaaan said:
Brief final point: I wouldn't seek out subjective reviews of the SHD if I were you. We know objectively that it has no sound signature whatsoever. So any opinions expressed about how it allegedly sounds are likely to be the result of either (a) comparisons with devices that do have an audible sound signature (i.e. incompetently/artistically designed devices) or (b) extrinsic psychological factors.

You said in the OP that you were seeking to avoid audible degradation of the signal, which I presume means that you want a device or devices that don't produce audible noise or distortion.
Click to expand...
I think the OP is looking for subjective reviews for usability and ease of use information rather than sound quality. I would also like to know about the SHD like how does the screen look from accross the room? Is there any issues with clicks and pops? How do you power the device on and off or do you leave it on all the time? etc...
 
TimW said:
I think the OP is looking for subjective reviews for usability and ease of use information rather than sound quality. I would also like to know about the SHD like how does the screen look from accross the room? Is there any issues with clicks and pops? How do you power the device on and off or do you leave it on all the time? etc...
Click to expand...

Maybe. He only raised questions about sound quality in the OP, with no mention of usability etc, so that's what I responded to.
 
andreasmaaan said:
Brief final point: I wouldn't seek out subjective reviews of the SHD if I were you. We know objectively that it has no sound signature whatsoever. So any opinions expressed about how it allegedly sounds are likely to be the result of either (a) comparisons with devices that do have an audible sound signature (i.e. incompetently/artistically designed devices) or (b) extrinsic psychological factors.

You said in the OP that you were seeking to avoid audible degradation of the signal, which I presume means that you want a device or devices that don't produce audible noise or distortion.
Click to expand...

Yes you are right .... That was the intend of the query ...Yet somehow there is a comforting factor in knowing that the science has produced results that are in keeping with a fellow humans auditory perception too .... Like things are not too bad kindof a confirmation .....
 
I use the Minidsp SHD in a 2.1 setup. It is outstanding in my opinion. You get a top tier DAC, Dirac Room Correction, Crossovers all in one box. Some random thoughts...
  • The display is nice and large/legible which I like. I do wish it showed the sample rate etc on the display but it does not.
  • The remote is very basic with a “source” that cycles through the inputs instead of a direct input via the remote. However, Minidsp has uploaded the discrete remote codes for the remote if you have a programmable remote that can accept them.
  • The volume control is in .5db which is probably fine seems a little course to me. The volume knob doesn’t smoothly rotate, instead you can feel the .5db increments
  • I wish the inputs could be renamed but they are named usb, tos, rca etc.
  • The built in streaming via Volumio works well, but the UI is basic vis a web browser interface. If you are used to Roon,or even the native apps of Tidal, etc, Volumio is a much more basic layout. It is not an official Roon endpoint, but via their forum it sounds like others have got roon working. It is still a very new product for Minidsp and it is still under development. Dirac 2.0 is coming at some point, hopefully native Roon at some point.
  • Apple airplay works well
  • The Dirac room correction works really well
  • I was torn between something like an Emotiva XMC1, McIntosh MX151 or the SHD. In the end went with the SHD and it has turned out to work very well for me. If you only need digital inputs, don’t forget there is the SHD Studio @ $899 instead of $1199. I think it would be hard to top an SHD/NC400 amp combo you are considering. If you have any questions about it, happy to answer any questions I can.
 
Dj7675 said:
  • The built in streaming via Volumio works well, but the UI is basic vis a web browser interface. If you are used to Roon,or even the native apps of Tidal, etc, Volumio is a much more basic layout. It is not an official Roon endpoint, but via their forum it sounds like others have got roon working. It is still a very new product for Minidsp and it is still under development. Dirac 2.0 is coming at some point, hopefully native Roon at some point.
  • Apple airplay works well
Click to expand...
Roon supports Airplay and indeed I have used it that way with Volumio. The only thing about it is that it truncates anything higher than 16 bits to well, 16 bits. :)
 
amirm said:
Roon supports Airplay and indeed I have used it that way with Volumio. The only thing about it is that it truncates anything higher than 16 bits to well, 16 bits. :)
Click to expand...
During my trial I ran it that way as well. I have very marginal internet (only 3M) and Roon kept cutting out unfortunately. I can stream cd quality if with the Tidal app if there is little to no other internet use. For those that want Roon installed on their SHD, people more savvy than me got it working it appears...I even thought about downgrading Tidal to their 320k aac plan to get Roon to work. I should do some double blind tests to see if I can even tell the difference between 320k aac and 16 bit cd quality.
https://www.minidsp.com/forum/shd-series/15598-volumio-and-squeezelite
 
spaace said:
Yes you are right .... That was the intend of the query ...Yet somehow there is a comforting factor in knowing that the science has produced results that are in keeping with a fellow humans auditory perception too .... Like things are not too bad kindof a confirmation .....
Click to expand...

I can appreciate that, but in reality I've seen so many subjective opinions on devices that couldn't possibly sound like anything, and these opinions have often been exactly what you might expect given the price, looks, published technical marketing information, or country of origin of the product... Well, you have to become a bit more sceptical at some point :)

I mean looking at this unit and knowing it is Chinese, not cheap though, but not a dedicated DAC either, I feel I can almost predict what the subjective reviews are going to say. "Surprisingly clean"... "almost as good as my [expensive 2-channel DAC]"... "accurate but a bit cold and digital"... "resolving", etc etc.

At the end of the day, the highest noise/distortion product this thing produces is 115dB below the signal. If your audio system can even produce a sound that is 115dB in level (which, unless it's a PA system, it probably can't), then your worst-case scenario will be distortion at 0dB, which is going to be at least 25-30dB below the ambient noise floor of your room. If you actually want it to do so in your living room, you're not going to have your hearing for long. The absolute dynamic range of the human ear is barely 115dB. Masking reduces that range drastically in practice. Nobody has ever managed to hear greater than -90dB distortion products under controlled conditions, and in those cases the distortion was of the most offensive types imaginable (which are not present in most DACs, nor this one). Your speakers are going to be producing distortion in the range of -60dB to -10dB constantly.

Anyway I can completely relate to how you feel! Just putting my (admittedly rather long-winded) 2c in here :)
 
Dj7675 said:
I use the Minidsp SHD in a 2.1 setup. It is outstanding in my opinion. You get a top tier DAC, Dirac Room Correction, Crossovers all in one box. Some random thoughts...
  • The display is nice and large/legible which I like. I do wish it showed the sample rate etc on the display but it does not.
  • The remote is very basic with a “source” that cycles through the inputs instead of a direct input via the remote. However, Minidsp has uploaded the discrete remote codes for the remote if you have a programmable remote that can accept them.
  • The volume control is in .5db which is probably fine seems a little course to me. The volume knob doesn’t smoothly rotate, instead you can feel the .5db increments
  • I wish the inputs could be renamed but they are named usb, tos, rca etc.
  • The built in streaming via Volumio works well, but the UI is basic vis a web browser interface. If you are used to Roon,or even the native apps of Tidal, etc, Volumio is a much more basic layout. It is not an official Roon endpoint, but via their forum it sounds like others have got roon working. It is still a very new product for Minidsp and it is still under development. Dirac 2.0 is coming at some point, hopefully native Roon at some point.
  • Apple airplay works well
  • The Dirac room correction works really well
  • I was torn between something like an Emotiva XMC1, McIntosh MX151 or the SHD. In the end went with the SHD and it has turned out to work very well for me. If you only need digital inputs, don’t forget there is the SHD Studio @ $899 instead of $1199. I think it would be hard to top an SHD/NC400 amp combo you are considering. If you have any questions about it, happy to answer any questions I can.
Click to expand...

To install official Roon bridge on Volumio do the following:

First you need to enable SSH access on Volumio

Go to the "volumio.local/DEV" page with your browser, find the SSH section, and click "enable"

Putty access to Volumio:
user: volumio
password: volumio

Execute the following commands:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install bzip2
curl -O http://download.roonlabs.com/builds/roonbridge-installer-linuxarmv7hf.sh chmod +x roonbridge-installer-linuxarmv7hf.sh
sudo ./roonbridge-installer-linuxarmv7hf.sh

Enter password again.
Enter Y
Sit back and install.
Roon should now be running.

Volumio webGUI is a simple interface that enables basic Volumio functionality.
Volumio is UPnP renderer whih means you can control it with UPnP control point software like BubbleUPnP for Android, Kinsky for Windows etc. It functions best when your music is accesible via UPnP media server software which is offered for free by all major NAS manufacturers. If you want to share music stored on your PC I recommend Universal Media Server - it is free and functions well.

If you want your music to be available outside your local network you should use BubbleUPnP server. It also provides compatibility to OpenHome standards for your UPnP renderers.
 
Last edited:
Krunok said:
To install official Roon bridge on Volumio do the following:

First you need to enable SSH access on Volumio

Go to the "volumio.local/DEV" page with your browser, find the SSH section, and click "enable"

Putty access to Volumio:
user: volumio
password: volumio

Execute the following commands:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install bzip2
curl -O http://download.roonlabs.com/builds/roonbridge-installer-linuxarmv7hf.sh chmod +x roonbridge-installer-linuxarmv7hf.sh
sudo ./roonbridge-installer-linuxarmv7hf.sh

Enter password again.
Enter Y
Sit back and install.
Roon should now be running.

Volumio webGUI is a simple interface that enables basic Volumio functionality.
Volumio is UPnP renderer whih means you can control it with UPnP control point software like BubbleUPnP for Android, Kinsky for Windows etc. It functions best when your music is accesible via UPnP media server software which is offered for free by all major NAS manufaturers. If you want to share music stored on your PC I recommend Universal Media Server - it is free and functions well.

If you want your music to be available outside your local network you should use BubbleUPnP server. It also provides compatibility to OpenHome standards for your UPnP renderers.
Click to expand...
Thank you this. Very clear and helpful info.
 
Dj7675 said:
I use the Minidsp SHD in a 2.1 setup. It is outstanding in my opinion. You get a top tier DAC, Dirac Room Correction, Crossovers all in one box. Some random thoughts...
  • The display is nice and large/legible which I like. I do wish it showed the sample rate etc on the display but it does not.
  • The remote is very basic with a “source” that cycles through the inputs instead of a direct input via the remote. However, Minidsp has uploaded the discrete remote codes for the remote if you have a programmable remote that can accept them.
  • The volume control is in .5db which is probably fine seems a little course to me. The volume knob doesn’t smoothly rotate, instead you can feel the .5db increments
  • I wish the inputs could be renamed but they are named usb, tos, rca etc.
  • The built in streaming via Volumio works well, but the UI is basic vis a web browser interface. If you are used to Roon,or even the native apps of Tidal, etc, Volumio is a much more basic layout. It is not an official Roon endpoint, but via their forum it sounds like others have got roon working. It is still a very new product for Minidsp and it is still under development. Dirac 2.0 is coming at some point, hopefully native Roon at some point.
  • Apple airplay works well
  • The Dirac room correction works really well
  • I was torn between something like an Emotiva XMC1, McIntosh MX151 or the SHD. In the end went with the SHD and it has turned out to work very well for me. If you only need digital inputs, don’t forget there is the SHD Studio @ $899 instead of $1199. I think it would be hard to top an SHD/NC400 amp combo you are considering. If you have any questions about it, happy to answer any questions I can.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that detailed reply DJ ..I shall dm you offline for some details ....
 
Krunok said:
To install official Roon bridge on Volumio do the following:

First you need to enable SSH access on Volumio

Go to the "volumio.local/DEV" page with your browser, find the SSH section, and click "enable"

Putty access to Volumio:
user: volumio
password: volumio

Execute the following commands:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install bzip2
curl -O http://download.roonlabs.com/builds/roonbridge-installer-linuxarmv7hf.sh chmod +x roonbridge-installer-linuxarmv7hf.sh
sudo ./roonbridge-installer-linuxarmv7hf.sh

Enter password again.
Enter Y
Sit back and install.
Roon should now be running.

Volumio webGUI is a simple interface that enables basic Volumio functionality.
Volumio is UPnP renderer whih means you can control it with UPnP control point software like BubbleUPnP for Android, Kinsky for Windows etc. It functions best when your music is accesible via UPnP media server software which is offered for free by all major NAS manufacturers. If you want to share music stored on your PC I recommend Universal Media Server - it is free and functions well.

If you want your music to be available outside your local network you should use BubbleUPnP server. It also provides compatibility to OpenHome standards for your UPnP renderers.
Click to expand...
Did Minidsp change the PW? This is the first time I have done this kind of thing but it is telling me the password is incorrect.
 
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