Multichannel System for Music - Standards, Setup, Thoughts, etc.

[ernestcarl]

I finally found the exact stand adapter they used on top of the tripod stand from the video: 19780 Inclinable stand adapter

So I think I figured out what you use to properly mount a KH80 to the top of a standard 1 3/8" speaker stand: KH80 + LH61(in your list) + LH28(goes on tube).

*The LH 29 may fit some tripod stands better:

I totally forgot that I had a different model of stand from the one I added on that idea list. The LH28 can be skipped if you use stands that have a screw at the top (standard 3/8" size similar ones used on top of camera tripod stands) e.g. K&M 26740 (removable plate) + LH61 (the old thicker model with multiple threaded holes at the bottom and not the new one) -- I've seen some selling second-hand on ebay in the past. On B&H's item page, they have older photos posted, so you'll have to call whichever seller you're buying from which specific model they actually carry.

Depending on your use-case-scenario (I have a standing desk and I move around the space a lot), the height of something like the K&M 26750 speaker stand may be too short even at max if you want to go the two-speakers-per-stand route -- and the maximum tilt of the LH 61 may also not be enough here -- the 19780 Inclinable stand adapter may work better. That's also why I included the K&M 26734 Speaker Stand on my list. If you are just going to be sitting at a normal constricted height level, say on a couch or non-standing desk, while watching films or listening to music etc., then it may be perfectly adequate. You could go even higher if you use large imposing tripod stands as the installers did in the video.

I haven't figured out what you use to clamp the lower speaker onto the pole. I don't think that Genelec truss clamp is right, it says it's for "a 50mm tube" and speaker stands are 35 or 38mm(1 3/8" and 1 1/2"). Maybe something like https://www.globaltruss.com/jr-snap-clamp ? Not sure how that connects to the speaker bracket or what size bolt you need...

Edit: I did end up finding something that would work. Powerwerks Standmate. This clamps a 1 3/8" pole to the middle of a stand, and you can put the rest of the hardware on that.

I am concerned that type of adapter moves the speaker too far forward from the center of the stand.

I have a different suggestion:

There are significantly cheaper clamps that do fit well over the 26750 other than those Genelec truss clamps, for example, the ~$18.00 iShoot "Super Strong" Clamp

I have used this with my K&M 26740 stands to hold a lamp and some camera lighting gear in the past. The max load rating is 10kg. This should be enough to hold the KH80 (3.5kg) securely. All you need to do is simply find a way to attach an M8 screw flush on its surface. Heheh... I know, easier said than done. I could not find a 1/4" to M8 screw adapter.

2.75" distance between the mounting holes.

I could not find an adapter for the hexagon hole (with push lock) that would perfectly fit since most of these carry a 3/8" or 1/4" female thread. BTW, the KH80 and KH120 use standard M8 screws -- the short metallic one came with the LH61 kit, and the black one I stole from a TV mounting kit.

I hope you can figure out what I'm trying to illustrate with the above pictures. Place the large clamp flat on a table. Place the long M8 screw inside (2" thread length plus the big head [side push spring lock will keep it from popping out]). Fill the hole with epoxy. Let it harden for a couple days.

Unfortunately, your speaker will still sit slightly off center.

OR, you could find a clamp with a bigger thread size hole or enlarge the smaller ones in this clamp somehow...

Frankly, few people have the equipment to bore through the thick steel of a clamp like this anyhows!
*It might actually be just aluminum so it may be doable to punch a larger hole straight right through in betwen those two smaller holes.

 

[Ron Party]

I'm curious as to the claim that HDMI for sure does not cut it. I've been using an HDMI connection for years now. I'm not aware that I'm missing anything, nor that my system is in any way incapable of lossless playback. Maybe I just have tin ears?

 

[ernestcarl]

@Sancus I have updated the Ideas List to include much cheaper alternatives to the LH 28.

Oh yeah, that website has a lot of other clamp alternatives that may also work better than the crazy one I had.

 

[Sal1950]

I'm curious as to the claim that HDMI for sure does not cut it. I've been using an HDMI connection for years now. I'm not aware that I'm missing anything, nor that my system is in any way incapable of lossless playback. Maybe I just have tin ears?

Same here Ron. All my mch files sound just fine over HDMI?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I think we are missing a proper way to transport Mch through a cable.

You are talking about disc playback and a lot of this becomes much easier with file playback. Of course, these should be paid for as downloads or ripped from purchased discs, both of which pay the musicians. Steaming, too, but I do not understand the economics of that.. However, file and streaming are today's media. Discs will continue to atrophy.

 

[Sancus]

@Sancus I have updated the Ideas List to include much cheaper alternatives to the LH 28.

Oh yeah, that website has a lot of other clamp alternatives that may also work better than the crazy one I had.

Thanks, very useful posts. I like that 19780 adapter quite a bit and might use it, it looks like it should be fine with any 1 3/8(35mm) stand.

Depending on your use-case-scenario (I have a standing desk and I move around the space a lot), the height of something like the K&M 26750 speaker stand may be too short even at max if you want to go the two-speakers-per-stand route -- and the maximum tilt of the LH 61 may also not be enough here -- the 19780 Inclinable stand adapter may work better. That's also why I included the K&M 26734 Speaker Stand on my list. If you are just going to be sitting at a normal constricted height level, say on a couch or non-standing desk, while watching films or listening to music etc., then it may be perfectly adequate. You could go even higher if you use large imposing tripod stands as the installers did in the video.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I do want to go higher, I think I want the heights to be at 84" or even 96"(I have 9' ceilings in the living area)... I may not finish at that, but I'd definitely like to test it out. Most sources seem to recommend that the surround speakers be somewhat above ear level, and then the heights need to be high enough that you perceive them as separate. There are A LOT of conflicting recommendations and suggestions on placement of the various surround speaker types.

I don't mind using tripod stands, but there are a lot of stands out there so I'll have to spend some time looking.

 

[ernestcarl]

Thanks, very useful posts. I like that 19780 adapter quite a bit and might use it, it looks like it should be fine with any 1 3/8(35mm) stand.



Yeah, I'm pretty sure I do want to go higher, I think I want the heights to be at 84" or even 96"(I have 9' ceilings in the living area)... I may not finish at that, but I'd definitely like to test it out. Most sources seem to recommend that the surround speakers be somewhat above ear level, and then the heights need to be high enough that you perceive them as separate. There are A LOT of conflicting recommendations and suggestions on placement of the various surround speaker types.

I don't mind using tripod stands, but there are a lot of stands out there so I'll have to spend some time looking.

The advantage for getting everything that's easy to adjust and move is the ability to tinker and experiment. And if you travel or move from place to place, it's much easier to set up and go. My rear surrounds are actually a little lower than ear height -- but they're also a bit further aways from me. My ceiling is rather unoptimally low... I've raised it up before both above and at ear level but did not like the effect. Imagine having installers affix speakers permanently on the walls, as well as all the cables and outlets positioned too high or too low etc. If not done properly or with guidance from trained acousticians, well, I'm afraid your gonna be stuck with said configuration.

 

[krabapple]

I'm curious as to the claim that HDMI for sure does not cut it. I've been using an HDMI connection for years now. I'm not aware that I'm missing anything, nor that my system is in any way incapable of lossless playback. Maybe I just have tin ears?

Such a claim is nonsense.

 

[krabapple]

I get that upmixing to Mch isn’t as good as native Mch

It can be as good, or better. It really depends on the quality of the native Mch mix. I certainly own Mch albums that I prefer to listen to upmixed from the original stereo mix. (Previously using DPL IIx; currently Dolby Surround. DPLIIx was better and certainly more user-configurable, but it's been abandoned on most modern AVRs alas.)

 

[krabapple]

I think we are missing a proper way to transport Mch through a cable. Hdmi fore sure does not cut it. Audio is embedded in between the video stream. This increases jitter, but even worse, there can be no audio without a video. That alone renders HDMI useless for audio.

Yet, I play all my music from a hard drive containing ripped files from DVD, DVD-A, SACD, and CD, connected to a laptop running foobar2000, connected via HDMI out to an AVR. There is no video display device connected to the AVR. So HDMI sans video is far from 'useless'.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

Hdmi transmits audio interleaved with video within special data packages inserted in-between the horizontal and vertical video blanking times.
I am sure that you would see some static picture if you connected a display behind the AVR while foobar plays.
Hdmi requires HDCP encryption whenever transmitting audio above CD quality and whenever the source requests it. There are some threads at the MiniDSP forum where the need for HDCP compliance is discussed even why a MiniDSP device puts previously non-encrypted HDMI out as encrypted and why they do not explain how to access the I2S headers. And one can find one company the makes an HDMI to SDI converter...(I believe Raspberry circumvented the issue by only allowing 2Channel for HDMI and at the I2S pins).

That means, there is no legal way to obtain Mch in a non-Hdmi/HDCP mode. Which is not bad, as HDMI cares for all audio formats and bandwidth. But it looks a bit strange within the context of testing DACs for jitter and comparing Tosslink to coax to XLR.

I slowly see that there are two Mch worlds:
One, playing original media and being stuck with HDMI and HDCP. And the world of streaming Mch from a copied and HDCP freed source.

I would argue for influencers to convince the music industry that no HDCP for Mch is needed as it is a niche market. Trouble is, that as video is needed for Hdmi-Audio, and video will need HDCP, this wish will hardly be respected. One could potentially work on the ARC channel and use that as pure audio channel, after increasing its bandwidth from currently 1Mbyte/s, which is a long way to go...

 

[krabapple]

Every day, thousands if not millions of people are watching and listening to video with multichannel audio that is above CD rate, from hardware connected to an AVR via HDMI. They are not reporting 'static picture'. What on earth are you talking about?

(HDCP 'handshake' issues are well known but hardly universal)

 

[JoachimStrobel]

Every day, thousands if not millions of people are watching and listening to video with multichannel audio that is above CD rate, from hardware connected to an AVR via HDMI. They are not reporting 'static picture'. What on earth are you talking about?

(HDCP 'handshake' issues are well known but hardly universal)

.... static was just meant as the kind of lowest Rate video stream, but sure, can be moving too.

 

[Sancus]

That means, there is no legal way to obtain Mch in a non-Hdmi/HDCP mode.

I honestly cannot figure your posts out. You keep saying Mch can't be split from HDMI in digital format, but that's simply false? Many TVs will take literally any HDMI video and output 5.1 over optical, which is digital. Now, of course, that is restricted to 5.1, but that's still multi-channel.

If you want completely lossless, or more channels, you have to get into somewhat more complicated solutions, but plenty of them exist. For example, the old Oppo bluray players will output 7.1 LPCM over an audio-only(video blank) HDMI connection.

And if what you want is a pure digital transport for arbitrary multi-channel, there are schemes for that, the one I'm familiar with is Dante. It's mostly used in professional gear, but the upcoming JBL SDP-55 looks like it will offer up to 16 channels using Dante from any HDMI source. You can route this audio using a standard LAN and output it via various devices, including LPCM, I believe.

E: I should add that all of this is irrelevant wrt Atmos since if you split Atmos from its metadata into raw multi-channel, you've done nothing but ruin it.

Now, if what you're concerned about is the legality of all the above and even the legality of HDCP itself...well whatever, I don't think that's worth discussing. It's complicated, totally irrelevant to practical application, and doesn't even apply in many jurisdictions in the world.

The future is DRMed streamed content anyway, and the only real non-commercial archivists of unencumbered content will be pirates, but that has been the reality for decades now.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

I honestly cannot figure your posts out. You keep saying Mch can't be split from HDMI in digital format, but that's simply false? Many TVs will take literally any HDMI video and output 5.1 over optical, which is digital. Now, of course, that is restricted to 5.1, but that's still multi-channel.

If you want completely lossless, or more channels, you have to get into somewhat more complicated solutions, but plenty of them exist. For example, the old Oppo bluray players will output 7.1 LPCM over an audio-only(video blank) HDMI connection.

And if what you want is a pure digital transport for arbitrary multi-channel, there are schemes for that, the one I'm familiar with is Dante. It's mostly used in professional gear, but the upcoming JBL SDP-55 looks like it will offer up to 16 channels using Dante from any HDMI source. You can route this audio using a standard LAN and output it via various devices, including LPCM, I believe.

E: I should add that all of this is irrelevant wrt Atmos since if you split Atmos from its metadata into raw multi-channel, you've done nothing but ruin it.

Now, if what you're concerned about is the legality of all the above and even the legality of HDCP itself...well whatever, I don't think that's worth discussing. It's complicated, totally irrelevant to practical application, and doesn't even apply in many jurisdictions in the world.

The future is DRMed streamed content anyway, and the only real non-commercial archivists of unencumbered content will be pirates, but that has been the reality for decades now.

Thanks for the remark.
I own an Oppo and feed LPCM into MiniDSP via the Oppo’s special HDMI port that has restricted video capabilities so the timing for the interleaved audio blocks is more stable. The 5.1 optical stuff is AC3 encoded. I try feeding Volumino@Rasp4’s HDMI into the same MiniDSP but it won’t, it does feed into the Oppo. I have ordered an Edid emulator. Volumino’s Roon plugin will let 2channel out of the Raspi4 HDMI port but no Mch. HDMI-HDCP! I will look out for Dante.

I am not concerned about the legal implication. All is good if the owner of a record makes a copy, but if that copy finds new friends, then there will be no musicians creating music any more eventually.

 

[krabapple]

.... static was just meant as the kind of lowest Rate video stream, but sure, can be moving too.

High definition video --1080p and up -- is routinely watched every day, without faults, while high-def multichannel soundtracks are playing, in systems connected solely by HDMI. Your concerns seem overblown.

 

[Sancus]

Thanks for the remark.
I own an Oppo and feed LPCM into MiniDSP via the Oppo’s special HDMI port that has restricted video capabilities so the timing for the interleaved audio blocks is more stable. The 5.1 optical stuff is AC3 encoded. I try feeding Volumino@Rasp4’s HDMI into the same MiniDSP but it won’t, it does feed into the Oppo. I have ordered an Edid emulator. Volumino’s Roon plugin will let 2channel out of the Raspi4 HDMI port but no Mch. HDMI-HDCP! I will look out for Dante.

I am not concerned about the legal implication. All is good if the owner of a record makes a copy, but if that copy finds new friends, then there will be no musicians creating music any more eventually.

Yes, the confusing part for me was whether you were talking about transports or archive purposes... For archive, obviously, and easy storage/playback, there's plenty of software that will rip any multi-channel audio from bluray or dvd or whatever to FLAC, DTS-HD, TrueHD files, etc. You're probably familiar with that, and while it has legitimate uses it's also piracy-related so I won't go into further detail.

Assuming you have a digital source(file, bluray, whatever) that is compatible with a PC, there aren't a whole lot of reasons to want digital outputs for audio specifically, so it isn't common in consumer products...I mean if you are just going to amplifiers or speakers, you might as well just use analog outputs...

But it is a quite common need in pro audio, for both live and studio mixing. So there are products like this and this which will let you output up to 16 channels of digital audio over a Dante LAN, and then convert it to AES, XLR, or whatever you need at the final output point. All this type of equipment is quite expensive, of course, since it's not designed for a consumer.

For me, I don't see much need to do some kind of digital output chain. It actually just complicates things. If I have a high-end AVR with Atmos and Dirac built-in, XLR outputs are plenty. And even if I don't have Dirac, and I want to put it through DSP and stuff first, there's not much evidence that small numbers of repeated ADC conversions have effect on quality.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

Yes, the confusing part for me was whether you were talking about transports or archive purposes... For archive, obviously, and easy storage/playback, there's plenty of software that will rip any multi-channel audio from bluray or dvd or whatever to FLAC, DTS-HD, TrueHD files, etc. You're probably familiar with that, and while it has legitimate uses it's also piracy-related so I won't go into further detail.

Assuming you have a digital source(file, bluray, whatever) that is compatible with a PC, there aren't a whole lot of reasons to want digital outputs for audio specifically, so it isn't common in consumer products...I mean if you are just going to amplifiers or speakers, you might as well just use analog outputs...

But it is a quite common need in pro audio, for both live and studio mixing. So there are products like this and this which will let you output up to 16 channels of digital audio over a Dante LAN, and then convert it to AES, XLR, or whatever you need at the final output point. All this type of equipment is quite expensive, of course, since it's not designed for a consumer.

For me, I don't see much need to do some kind of digital output chain. It actually just complicates things. If I have a high-end AVR with Atmos and Dirac built-in, XLR outputs are plenty. And even if I don't have Dirac, and I want to put it through DSP and stuff first, there's not much evidence that small numbers of repeated ADC conversions have effect on quality.

Hello,
I think we are coming to the core of the problem as I see it: Yes, there is pro equipment that has open digital Mch available, but the consumer does not have that choice. And there are Mch niche products that consumers can find and use but the moment they become too public they seem to disappear.
I agree, it may not be needed at all. I just find it strikingly funny, that the 2channel world is talking about bitperfectness and for Mch we use HDMI.
The real benefit of an open Mch digital architecture would be the avoidance of AVRs and the move towards components, which are then easier to upgrade or supplement.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

High definition video --1080p and up -- is routinely watched every day, without faults, while high-def multichannel soundtracks are playing, in systems connected solely by HDMI. Your concerns seem overblown.

My concern is, that Mch is not treated with the respect it deserves.

 

[Sancus]

Hello,
I think we are coming to the core of the problem as I see it: Yes, there is pro equipment that has open digital Mch available, but the consumer does not have that choice. And there are Mch niche products that consumers can find and use but the moment they become too public they seem to disappear.
I agree, it may not be needed at all. I just find it strikingly funny, that the 2channel world is talking about bitperfectness and for Mch we use HDMI.
The real benefit of an open Mch digital architecture would be the avoidance of AVRs and the move towards components, which are then easier to upgrade or supplement.

Well, there's no getting around the fact that the primary use of multi-channel is for movies & TV. The main reason I use HDMI though is that I only want one system for HT and primary, multi-channel music listening. I simply don't have the resources(money/time/space) to build two separate systems.

If I was focused primarily on music, I wouldn't bother with HDMI at all. There are good multi-channel DACs, and with a PC you can do all processing and room correction on the PC in software, removing the need for a chain of components. It is also quite easy to rip your standard 5.1 and 7.1 channel audio to files.

The one issue with that is Atmos playback, as while it is possible on Windows, I'm not quite sure if it's limited to bitstreaming or what, and 8 channels isn't really enough. However, Atmos music is an extremely tiny niche for the moment, and it is a completely proprietary format so you can't really expect it to be easy to integrate