Multichannel Recordings of Classical ♫ Music only | Tell us about the ones you fell for !

[Artsfols]

I checked the Reiner/Mussorgsky (3 versions) and the Munch Saint-Saens (2 versions). All are 3 channels only. How did you determine that not it is your "amp

I don't know for sure.
Here is what I do know.
The Strauss/ Heldenleben show 2 channel DSD on the disc player screen, so no issue there.
The Saint-Saens whose multi channel DSD on the disc player.
On the Denon X3700, the "Info" screen shows 5 channels input and 5 channels output.
There is a mode function on the Denon X3700 which I try not to use. One principle for me is to use only channels on the source material.
However, the default mode is "Multi In + Dsur" which produces 5 channels.
(I would sincerely hope that under this mode, which comes up often, that the receiver does not put out FL and FR into SL and SR, overriding the provided SL and SR channels.)
If I change the mode to "Multi in", I get only 3 channels.
In both cases, the "Info" screen shows 5 channels input and 5 channels output, as I mentioned.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

However, the default mode is "Multi In + Dsur" which produces 5 channels.

If I change the mode to "Multi in", I get only 3 channels.

Seems that "+Dsur" is the culprit. There is no up-mixing in my system unless I program it in (and I don't), so I think you are experiencing some up-mixing.

 

[Artsfols]

Seems that "+Dsur" is the culprit. There is no up-mixing in my system unless I program it in (and I don't), so I think you are experiencing some up-mixing.

I checked my manual, and the explanation does not match what this receiver does. So I am not any wiser on what the amp is doing.

Later: ChatGPT can be good on stuff like this. Here is what it said (in part).

Here’s the difference between the “Multi In” and “Multi In + Dsur” sound modes on your Denon X3700H when you’re playing an SACD (DSD) or other multi-channel PCM source:

• [ Multi In] Meaning: The AVR is receiving multi-channel audio (PCM or DSD) from the source and directly using those channels without additional matrixing or upmixing. Denon+1
• What it does:
  • Plays the original multi-channel signal as recorded (e.g., 5.1 or 7.1 channels from your SACD).
  • There’s no additional processing to try to expand it to more speakers.
  • Your front, surround, and possibly surround-back channels are used exactly as encoded.
• [Multi In + Dsur] Meaning: This is the same multi-channel input, but with Dolby Surround (Dsur) processing applied. Denon Manuals
• What this does:
  • It takes the original multi-channel audio and applies Dolby Surround upmixer in the AVR.
  • The system analyzes the signal and spreads some of the audio to additional speakers you have connected (e.g., height/Atmos or extra surrounds).
  • This creates a more immersive soundfield than the straight multi-channel signal alone — especially noticeable if you have height or wide speakers.

I do want the sound without upmixing. I'll be monitoring this more closely going forward. At least it isn't simply overriding what's on the SL, SR inputs with FL, FR which would be the worst case.

Later again:

It does seem that whatever sound mode is selected is reasonably sticky, i.e. selecting "Multi In" will persist through playing different SACDs and switching to another sound source and back again.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Just say "No" (to +Dsur).

 

[Artsfols]

Just say "No" (to +Dsur).

I am pretty sure there isn't any way to turn it off absolutely, but as my expanded post indicates, I think I have a solution.

 

[Bwmr]

I am a fan of Rene Jacobs. His Don Giovanni is my favourite of the half dozen I have on DVD. Don't know if you're into Mozart's operas, but DG is controversial and Jacobs reading makes the most sense to me, plus it just sounds great.

Very much so: I own the "Don Gionanni" and the "Le Nozze di Figaro" by Jacobs in SACD 5.1. They are excellent, both musical and acoustic wise. Worthy of a great multichannel setup.

 

[Artsfols]

Very much so: I own the "Don Gionanni" and the "Le Nozze di Figaro" by Jacobs in SACD 5.1. They are excellent, both musical and acoustic wise. Worthy of a great multichannel setup.

I just checked the DVD version I purchased quite a few years ago, and it does have a 5.1 track. With some time off this week, I greatly look forward to viewing this.

 

[Fidji]

Building up slowly my BR Classical music collection - now at around 150 pcs - both BR-A and video. Trying to get 3-4 new discs monthly and of course subscribing to Digital Concert Hall of Berliner Philharmoniker.
No SACDs/DSD as it is too much of a hassle for my Trinnov based setup.

I am actually “deep-diver” type of listerer - once I fund something I like, I listen repeatedly, study the context, look for alternative interpretations etc. So I usually get stuck on 3-4 compositions for couple of weeks.

It’s quite gratifying to see the faces of 2 ch aficionados finally understanding unquestionable superiority of MCH vs 2Ch, especially for classical music.

2 photos - just random selection.

 

[Scytales]

This is quite an extraordinary recording, especially considering the fact that it was made in 1965! It was released on SACD in its original three track format (left - center - right channels). The orchestra is magnificently recorded, with vivid string, yet without any trace of harshness or over-emphasis of treble. The sound-stage is very wide and deep. This is absolutely stunning! Of course, the performance of Brendel is to be praised also for the success of this release.

 

[Scytales]

A very affordable integral of Beethoven's symphonies recorded in multichannel (5.1 format) was released by the Berlin Philharmonic on Blue Ray discs, SACDs and downloadable FLAC files:

Simon Rattle conducts Beethoven’s Symphonies

On his personal approach to the performances, Sir Simon said, “You can make Beethoven too sophisticated or too elegant, you can clean him up too much. You can try to make him agree with himself when often he’s fighting with himself. I have

www.berliner-philharmoniker-recordings.com

This is a very good integral under the direction of Simon Rattle. The 9th, energetic, joyful and engaging, is my preferred interpretation, followed by the 7th and the 8th. The other symphonies are also very well played to my liking, even if I have heard better performances. Needless to say the Berlin Philharmonic is a treat to hear! The playing of the musicians is so well articulated it's a joy to follow the counterpoint. A worthy addition to any Beethovenian discography.

 

[Robin L]

Used to have a 5.1 system. Still have over 80 SACDs, 57 are classical. I didn't notice much difference between surround and two channel reproduction in most cases. The Living Stereo series sounds great, but I chalk that up to good mastering. Pop productions have more going on in their surround incarnations. That said, the surround version of the Carlos Kleiber/VPO Beethoven symphonies sounds better than the two channel version. I find the two-channel version lacks weight, is a touch shrill. Also, one does get a good sense of the acoustic in this recording, more so than other surround recordings. I've got BIS SACDs that test the limit of playback due very low sound levels at times. The Chailly/Concertgebouw recording of Mahler's 3rd symphony also tests dynamic limits; either the quiet parts are too quiet, or the loud parts will be too loud.

Edit: I've got 19 SACDs from the "Living Stereo" series. Some are remarkable, like Reiner's "Das Lied von der Erde", some are clearly bleeding edge (for their time) like the Berlioz Requiem, Munch BSO. Had to get rid of that one due to excessive peak distortion. Also have SACDs from Mono and 2-channel stereo sources, like Gieseking's complete Debussy for EMI, mono recordings from 1951 to 1954. Not what I think of as high fidelity; though the performances are great, the sound of the original recordings doesn't justify the dynamic range, frequency bandwidth that SACDs are capable. Also have a few single-layer Sony SACDs preserving two-channel original recordings.

 

[Scytales]

Used to have a 5.1 system. Still have over 80 SACDs, 57 are classical. I didn't notice much difference between surround and two channel reproduction in most cases.

It may very well happens and there might be a straightforward explanation to this disappointment: some multichannel releases are actually just 2 channels materials up-mixed to more channels by processing devices that put very little signal in the supplemental channels (like a faint ambiance signal), even in the front center channel when available. I have some Sony and Triton multichannel SACDs that are made that way. Needless to say this kind of multichannel program materials are not true multichannel recordings and they are worthless. I suspect they were made only to let the owners of multichannel systems be happy to hear something coming out of all their speakers... In other words, a gimmick.

This kind of multichannel SACD releases has no added value and in fact, I listen to them in stereo and avoid buying them when a 2 channels-only SACD also exists, which is the case with some Triton releases for example.

But the topic of this very thread is precisely true multichannel recordings of the kind of the early 3 channels recordings from Mercury or Vanguard, or the true 4 channels recordings of the quadraphonic era and, of course, modern true multichannel recordings of the like of the 4 to 6 channels recordings from BNL, Passavant, Pentatone, Syrius and many others.

Edit: I've got 19 SACDs from the "Living Stereo" series. Some are remarkable, like Reiner's "Das Lied von der Erde", some are clearly bleeding edge (for their time) like the Berlioz Requiem, Munch BSO. Had to get rid of that one due to excessive peak distortion.

I have at least one RCA Living Stereo SACD (Puccini's Turandot) on which I have clearly identified peak DSD modulation levels above the limits set by the Scarlet Book (SACD standard) thanks to an SACD players equipped with DACs having a processor that mutes the output when encountering overmodulated DSD. Maybe this is also the case with the Munch release, but I no longer have the previously stated SACD player to check that.

Problems are:
(1) the DAC must be able to cope with this peak level higher than those specified with the Scarlet Book;
(2) if there is a conversion from DSD to PCM at some point, there has to be sufficient headroom in the PCM domain to avoid clipping;
(3) the post-DAC analogue output stage must not clip or distort on analogue peak levels higher than those specified according to the Scarlet Book specifications;
(4) the downstream amplifiers (and speakers) must also be able to cope with the higher than anticipated analogue peak levels.

Better have sufficient headroom at any point in the system to avoid distorsion!

 

[Robin L]

It may very well happens and there might be a straightforward explanation to this disappointment: some multichannel releases are actually just 2 channels materials up-mixed to more channels by processing devices that put very little signal in the supplemental channels (like a faint ambiance signal), even in the front center channel when available. I have some Sony and Triton multichannel SACDs that are made that way. Needless to say this kind of multichannel program materials are not true multichannel recordings and they are worthless. I suspect they were made only to let the owners of multichannel systems be happy to hear something coming out of all their speakers... In other words, a gimmick.

This kind of multichannel SACD releases has no added value and in fact, I listen to them in stereo and avoid buying them when a 2 channels-only SACD also exists, which is the case with some Triton releases for example.

But the topic of this very thread is precisely true multichannel recordings of the kind of the early 3 channels recordings from Mercury or Vanguard, or the true 4 channels recordings of the quadraphonic era and, of course, modern true multichannel recordings of the like of the 4 to 6 channels recordings from BNL, Passavant, Pentatone, Syrius and many others.



I have at least one RCA Living Stereo SACD (Puccini's Turandot) on which I have clearly identified peak DSD modulation levels above the limits set by the Scarlet Book (SACD standard) thanks to an SACD players equipped with DACs having a processor that mutes the output when encountering overmodulated DSD. Maybe this is also the case with the Munch release, but I no longer have the previously stated SACD player to check that.

Problems are:
(1) the DAC must be able to cope with this peak level higher than those specified with the Scarlet Book;
(2) if there is a conversion from DSD to PCM at some point, there has to be sufficient headroom in the PCM domain to avoid clipping;
(3) the post-DAC analogue output stage must not clip or distort on analogue peak levels higher than those specified according to the Scarlet Book specifications;
(4) the downstream amplifiers (and speakers) must also be able to cope with the higher than anticipated analogue peak levels.

Better have sufficient headroom at any point in the system to avoid distorsion!

I've listened to a lot of early stereo classical recordings and many stress the limits of what analog recorders could do in the 1950s/early 1960s. So, I'm not surprised if I heard peak distortion when they become SACDs. But I have to wonder why they put in the effort when they could have just as easily released recordings like the Gieseking EMI Debussy recordings from the early 1950s as Redbook with no audible difference.

 

[Scytales]

This is the best recording of musical works played on old instruments I have heard to this date :

Discogs link : https://www.discogs.com/release/206...n-Pratum-Integrum-Orchestra-Telemann-in-Minor