Multichannel computer audio solutions

[dithered]

I use hdmi for audio only.

That's not really possible. HDMI doesn't truly separate video and audio. If you're doing computer audio, you will get a phantom monitor that your mouse cursor can get lost on if you use HDMI only for audio with no monitor connected.

 

[dithered]

I think the short answer is to get the Okto DAC8.

Okto Research

Objective performance

www.oktoresearch.com

If that's accurate, it only has an ASIO driver? If it doesn't have WDM driver support, it's a no go for me. I need it to be able to work with computer games etc.

 

[Chrispy]

That's not really possible. HDMI doesn't truly separate video and audio. If you're doing computer audio, you will get a phantom monitor that your mouse cursor can get lost on if you use HDMI only for audio with no monitor connected.

Don't usually use a computer as a source. I think I can still get audio only but may have to turn off the display....but just not interested generally in my computer as source.

 

[dithered]

Don't usually use a computer as a source. I think I can still get audio only but may have to turn off the display....but just not interested generally in my computer as source.

If only it were that easy. With computers, if you disable the monitor, it also disables the sound because with HDMI video and audio can't be separated.

 

[Chrispy]

If only it were that easy. With computers, if you disable the monitor, it also disables the sound because with HDMI video and audio can't be separated.

My Oppo can do it well enough it seems. On some streamers I need to hit play again.

ps I'm not particularly defending hdmi, just not a great connector let alone ideas behind it....

 

[welwynnick]

Good list but you should add Merging Anubis.

I was in two minds about the Anubis, but decided to exclude it as it only has four analogue outputs (and I got frustrated by the obfuscatory marketing BS). I think it's more of a network / interface controller than an interface itself. I also excluded Glennsound, Behringer, Crestron, Ferrofish and Penta for various reasons.

I do notice, however, that Merging have bowed to the inevitable and added Dante compatibility to the forthcoming HAPI Mk III.

 

[welwynnick]

Thanks that's a great resource. Curious, though, any reason you haven't looked into the Marian Clara E or emin?

Clara E – MARIAN GmbH

www.marian.de

Clara Emin – MARIAN GmbH

www.marian.de

It has Windows and Linux drivers and supposedly supports all the normal Windows APIs that games use. It seems good for Dante it's just expensive.

That table was off the shelf, so to speak, and might not have been the specific answer to the question. I was concentrating on getting an analogue audio signal without using HDMI, assuming that a suitable digital audio connection was available. Those digital connections can take many forms, but lets start by ignoring ADAT, MADI & HDX, that are specific to recording studios.

That leaves Ravenna, Dante, AVB, AES67, AES3, TB3 & USB. I think any of those can do the job, and Dante seems to be floating to the surface. Perhaps it is indeed the way forwards, BUT anything that supports Dante is expensive.

The Marian Clara E is one of a small number of PCIE cards that provides a PC Dante interface, and my table was focussed on what you do with the Dante connection once you've got it.

I have to say, though, that I don't see the benefit of a Marian Clara E over a Dante Virtual Soundcard, or Thunderbolt 2, or USB3? The Marian Clara D looks like a great option, compatible with a wide range of good audio interfaces and DACs.

 

[Sal1950]

I completely agree; HDMI is an audio curse.

Once you venture outside the domestic domain and into studio equipment, you will indeed find a large number of high-performing, reasonably priced audio interfaces that can perform multi-channel D to A conversion without HDMI.

Good list but you should add Merging Anubis.

LOL, OMG NO. Please don't push this level of cable complexity into the domestic realm.
HDMI may not be perfect but for day to day home audio/video it functions at a very high level.
We've mainly gotten past most of the handshake issues experienced a few years back and life is very good in the home audio connection world.

 

[StigErik]

That's not really possible. HDMI doesn't truly separate video and audio. If you're doing computer audio, you will get a phantom monitor that your mouse cursor can get lost on if you use HDMI only for audio with no monitor connected.

Not if you select the Duplicate option in Windows. I guess the same would be possible on other operating systems as well....

 

[welwynnick]

LOL, OMG NO. Please don't push this level of cable complexity into the domestic realm.
HDMI may not be perfect but for day to day home audio/video it functions at a very high level.
We've mainly gotten past most of the handshake issues experienced a few years back and life is very good in the home audio connection world.

I think the OP is spot on. Why? There aren't any high performing DACs, processors or interfaces that use HDMI. There are many instances of receivers and processors that sound and measure worse on HDMI than any other input. There are some that are similar, but they're simply not very good. I looked for the best ASR measurements where HDMI was the input, and this is what I found. Maybe I missed some - please let me know - but I did look hard.

There are some devices that have good measurements, but there's a "but".
The MiniDSP Flex scores 114dB SINAD, but that was with SPDIF input.
The NAD M33 scored 108dB, but that was on SPDIF.
The Marantz AV10 scored 107dB, but that was on toslink, and HMDI was worse.
Everything else is worse.

The performance highlighted in the dashboards are probably great achievements arising from an enormous amount of work, and you could take the opinion that they're good enough, but the fact is a cheap SMSL DAC or MOTU interface wipes the floor with them.

I'm not going to suggest WHY HDMI is a problem - maybe it's jitter, maybe it's digital video noise, maybe it's both - but the results speak for themselves: HDMI is clearly holding things back. So I've been trying to find how to get better multi-channel audio performance by avoiding HDMI.

With a PC, you can use AOIP, TB3 or USB, and connect to a wide range of interfaces, listed in the table in post #15. With a disc player, you can use the following:

 

[Sal1950]

I'm not going to suggest WHY HDMI is a problem - maybe it's jitter, maybe it's digital video noise, maybe it's both - but the results speak for themselves: HDMI is clearly holding things back. So I've been trying to find how to get better multi-channel audio performance by avoiding HDMI.

You would need to present verifiable evidence that you can actually hear the differences between a properly functioning
HDMI interface and any of the others before it would become a relevant issue? 4 or 5 SINAD points proves nothing.

 

[welwynnick]

You would need to present verifiable evidence that you can actually hear the differences between a properly functioning
HDMI interface and any of the others before it would become a relevant issue? 4 or 5 SINAD points proves nothing.

You would have to ask @dithered about the motivations for this thread. I was just explaining MY reasons for agreeing with him. As I said above

you could take the opinion that they're good enough

In which case be happy. I want to pursue something better and, incidentally, cheaper. My intentions for joining this thread were to discuss ways of doing it.

 

[Keith_W]

Here are a few non-HDMI options for multichannel audio.

USB. Advantage: many devices available and very wide support. Disadvantage: number of channels is limited by your device. For e.g. if you have an interface with 4 DAC channels, you can not add any more unless ...

USB + DDC. ... you add a DDC (Digital-Digital Converter). You plug all your USB DAC's into the DDC and the DDC handles channel allocation and tells your PC that it is a DAC with N number of channels. Disadvantage: expensive.

AES67 aka network audio. There are a number of protocols, e.g. Dante, Ravenna, AVB, etc. These are pro audio protocols which allow indefinite expansion and aggregation of dozens of devices. Disadvantage: learning curve, and you are forced to use pro audio devices which often have downsides for us domestic users - e.g. presence of cooling fans, complexity, and utilitarian design. A lot of them don't even measure that great, with SINAD's in the 70's or worse.

 

[welwynnick]

Here are a few non-HDMI options for multichannel audio.
USB. Advantage: many devices available and very wide support. Disadvantage: number of channels is limited by your device. For e.g. if you have an interface with 4 DAC channels, you can not add any more unless ...

Sure, but there are plenty of devices that accept 8 or 16 channels over USB, and some even accept 32, like the Antelope Orion 32+G4. And if you use Thunderbolt, I believe you CAN cascade devices.

USB + DDC. ... you add a DDC (Digital-Digital Converter). You plug all your USB DAC's into the DDC and the DDC handles channel allocation and tells your PC that it is a DAC with N number of channels. Disadvantage: expensive.

I never heard of such a device. That would open up lots of opportunities. Can you give me an example?

AES67 aka network audio. There are a number of protocols, e.g. Dante, Ravenna, AVB, etc. These are pro audio protocols which allow indefinite expansion and aggregation of dozens of devices. Disadvantage: learning curve, and you are forced to use pro audio devices which often have downsides for us domestic users - e.g. presence of cooling fans, complexity, and utilitarian design. A lot of them don't even measure that great, with SINAD's in the 70's or worse.

There are other considerations that I haven't mentioned yet.
Most audio interfaces can be operated in standalone mode, but some can't, like the AVID HD IO (unfortunately for me!).
You often have to set up input / output mapping, and in some cases the digital sample rate is static rather than dynamic.
I deliberately excluded Glennsound, Behringer, Crestron, Ferrofish and Penta in post #15 because they're no better than AVPs.
I think many interfaces are intended for audio distribution in public places, rather than recording studios.

 

[surroundman]

If cost is an important variable, like it is to me, a quite often overlooked solution is ... the motherboard audio. But we have to keep in mind that we are strictly talking about multichannel PC gaming. This is not the typical stereo/SINAD discussion that is predominantly talked about in the forum, with music listening in mind. Also, it is important to note that multichannel gaming is not something that is done at high volume. I too am a PC gamer, and I care about audio mostly because of PC games. My motherboard supports up to 7.1, I have tested at the 4.1 mode (as I hardly need more due to being a desktop setup, speakers are close enough), and it works completely fine. If you have more space, I see no reason to not try it at 7.1. The best part in all of this is that it is essentially a FREE solution, as it is merely a feature of the motherboard itself. What is sad, however, is that they make way less such motherboards nowadays - from the new upcoming X870 AMD motherboards I think only the ASUS TUF version has it? It does not look good.
Other than that, I don't know. At one point I considered the DM7 DAC, but then I asked myself whether or not it is worth the money at all if the sole purpose is, again, predominantly PC gaming. And my honest answer was "no". For such purpose, I am not willing to spend more than $200-250, but as always, the money question is always a personal decision. If anything, see if the earlier mentioned ESI GIGASPORT audio interface works well. Else, let's wait and see if our favorite companies such as Aiyima, Fosi, and others come up with a simple yet sufficient USB multichannel DAC.

 

[somebodyelse]

I never heard of such a device. That would open up lots of opportunities. Can you give me an example?

https://rme-audio.de/digiface-usb.html
https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8

 

[phofman]

https://rme-audio.de/digiface-usb.html
https://www.minidsp.com/products/usb-audio-interface/u-dio8

I am afraid I do not understand how those devices implement

You plug all your USB DAC's into the DDC and the DDC handles channel allocation and tells your PC that it is a DAC with N number of channels.

They are standard USB-audio devices with multiple SPDIF/ADAT outputs. Plugging "all your USB DACs" would require asynchronous resampling for each DAC (assuming such device would support USB async DACs). A linux computer with USB gadget input, running pipewire to multiple output audio devices would likely fit the bill.

 

[somebodyelse]

I am afraid I do not understand how those devices implement

They are standard USB-audio devices with multiple SPDIF/ADAT outputs. Plugging "all your USB DACs" would require asynchronous resampling for each DAC (assuming such device would support USB async DACs). A linux computer with USB gadget input, running pipewire to multiple output audio devices would likely fit the bill.

Sorry. I failed to read the full requirement.

 

[phofman]

I perfectly understand, the description was quite unusual (I do not know an existing device like that either).

 

[phofman]

If cost is an important variable, like it is to me, a quite often overlooked solution is ... the motherboard audio. But we have to keep in mind that we are strictly talking about multichannel PC gaming. This is not the typical stereo/SINAD discussion that is predominantly talked about in the forum, with music listening in mind.

Actually multichannel onboard audio may be perfectly sufficient, IF ground loops are taken care of. Modern HDA codecs and integrated outputs are quite decent. BUT since the analog outputs are always single-ended, ground loop currents often ruin the result. IME using balanced inputs connected via fake balanced connection (e.g. my experience https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/adding-an-amp-into-thin-client-pc.320812/ ) help greatly (in my case down to inaudibility) to minimize the effect of GL currents.

But of course it requires using amps/active speakers with balanced inputs. IMO it should be a standard for connecting to PC. Although today many dirt-cheap class-D boards from Aliexpress do have balanced inputs good enough to eliminate the GL effect, users just often do not know about the inputs and how to use them.