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Multi Channel for Newbies

dallasjustice

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I have some questions about multichannel music recordings. I'm interested to know how much consistency there is with available multi channel recordings.

1. I know there are very few MCH recording. How many channels is the most common arrangement?

2. Is there any standardization with regard to making these recordings? If so, what percentage of recordings follow this standard?

3. How is low frequency recorded? Are all the channels all pass frequencies? Or is there one or more high pass channels? Is there a single mono low frequency channel?

4. What number of channels is the most optimum playback setup for perceived sound quality?

5. What percentage of MCH recordings are classical music?

6. Is there any application to MCH recordings outside of classical music? If so, what other genres lend themselves to MCH recordings?
 

Kal Rubinson

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N. B.: All my responses refer to classical recordings.

I have some questions about multichannel music recordings. I'm interested to know how much consistency there is with available multi channel recordings.

1. I know there are very few MCH recording. How many channels is the most common arrangement?
Most common is 5.0 but all other conceivable ones occur.
2. Is there any standardization with regard to making these recordings? If so, what percentage of recordings follow this standard?
Standardization of what? There are as many microphone placement possibilities, and more, as there are for stereo.
3. How is low frequency recorded? Are all the channels all pass frequencies? Or is there one or more high pass channels? Is there a single mono low frequency channel?
All channels pass all frequencies and, if an LFE channel is included, it is in addition to, not supplementary to, the main channels.
4. What number of channels is the most optimum playback setup for perceived sound quality?
Same as in the recording setup.
5. What percentage of MCH recordings are classical music?
??? The majority of mine are and, it seems, most of the ones recorded in this century seem to be.
6. Is there any application to MCH recordings outside of classical music? If so, what other genres lend themselves to MCH recordings?
I will leave that for others.
 

amirm

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. Is there any application to MCH recordings outside of classical music? If so, what other genres lend themselves to MCH recordings?
When DVD-A and SACD were launched, there were fair number of non-classical multichannel recordings that I bought. I have to find my box of them buried in storage right now but I recall James Taylor and other artists like them.

BTW, there are a lot of multi-channel live video concerts that run the gamut. I would estimate thousands of such (non-classical) titles.
 
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dallasjustice

dallasjustice

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Thanks Kal and Amir.

In the event the recording has an LFE channel, do you need a different DSP/crossover setup for those recordings as compared with the 5.0 recordings?

Btw, I'm not trying to be critical of MCH. I'm just trying to evaluate its overall merit as compared to the cost/complexity for proper integration into my current system. My requirements are different than most others. So please don't think I'm being negative toward MCH in general.
 

hvbias

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It's not worth it dude... my only advice is weigh the pros and cons very carefully before diving in. The one side tend to be real zealots, which is what got me sucked in.

As far as non classical goes this is probably one of the best times to be into multichannel. Steven Wilson (of the prog rock band Porcupine Tree) is remixing plenty of classic rock/prog albums from the 70s in multi channel like Yes, King Crimson, Emerson Lake and Palmer, XTC, Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, Hawkwind, etc. These mixes in surround can be pretty fun with the surround panning. Still not my preferred way of hearing them. Quad (4.0) was also a niche format in the 70s and the majors are reissuing a lot of these quad mixes on SACD or BD in deluxe editions.

With classical music the channel use is usually more conservative for ambiance. If all you're interested in is classical I don't think it's worth it, I buy my fair share of classical SACDs and the readings are mostly middle of the road to slightly above average. The best for sound quality and performance is Ivan Fischer and Budapest Festival Orchestra, these are released by Channel Classics. If you plan to integrate video Abbado has conducted Mahler on BD, those are also exceptional.

My surround setup is part of my HT (which I consider very good), but it is all traditional non DSP with a standard pre/pro so I can't really answer that.

Is there any multi-channel streaming?

Not that I know of. There are some orchestras that do live streams, but last I checked these were HD video but not surround.
 
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Sal1950

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Mark Waldrep at AIX does some Jazz and even country MCH recordings. Most Blu Rays have multipul mixes of the perfromances on the disc. Stereo, 5.1 Audience, 5.1 Stage, and a headphone mix. I own the Mark Chestnutt disc and enjoy the stage mix quite a bit. YMMV
http://aixrecords.com/articles/article_10_3D_music_albums.html
 

watchnerd

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If all you're interested in is classical I don't think it's worth it, I buy my fair share of classical SACDs and the readings are mostly middle of the road to slightly above average.

This was always my issue: so many of the performances were 2nd or even 3rd tier.

Plus what about classic recordings on Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, old Decca / DG, etc? Some of the best recording / performance combinations are from decades ago and are 2 channel.
 

hvbias

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This was always my issue: so many of the performances were 2nd or even 3rd tier.

Plus what about classic recordings on Living Stereo, Mercury Living Presence, old Decca / DG, etc? Some of the best recording / performance combinations are from decades ago and are 2 channel.

RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence were mostly 3 channel recordings :) Both had many great performances. Both were reissued extensively in 3 channel on SACD. The RCA can still be found cheap, the MLP are all out of print.

@dallasjustice when it comes to surround and Acourate I recall there were some guys on the Acourate group that were well versed in surround setup, Matt Kahn is one name that comes to mind. The discussion of 3-channel reminded me to answer one of your other questions.

1. I know there are very few MCH recording. How many channels is the most common arrangement?

With the classic/prog rock I mentioned, on the deluxe editions these tend to put a lot of music in the package. So there would be a vintage quad mix (if there was one in the 70s) and 5.1 is the most common modern remix. Usually a hi-res stereo and bonus tracks (out takes, alt takes, live tracks) would also be included in stereo.

With classical originally recorded in 3-channel these are left alone as 3-channel (L/center/R). 5.0 or 5.1 is again the more popular contemporary mix. It's a good question how a dedicated LFE would work with Acourate with your subwoofer setup, I'm really not too sure. Some of these mixes place quite a lot of bass in the LFE so I would not want to be without it for a truly high fidelity surround setup.

And one last opinion- I truly believe that surround is superior to stereo when all the stars align perfectly. But sadly that is a rare event when it comes to music. Getting sucked into the hi-fi effects game at the expense of enjoying great music is an all too real side effect of investing heavily in it, and I include myself in that in the past.
 
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Kal Rubinson

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In the event the recording has an LFE channel, do you need a different DSP/crossover setup for those recordings as compared with the 5.0 recordings?
First, in classical, it is extremely rare. I do not change them although, In my NYC system, I do not use bass management but, in my CT system, I do.
 

Kal Rubinson

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I will disagree with Kal that most classical music recorded this century is in surround.
That is not what I said. I said that most multichannel recorded in this century is classical and I said that to exclude consideration of remixes/remasterings/synthetic releases.
 

watchnerd

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RCA Living Stereo and Mercury Living Presence were mostly 3 channel recordings :) Both had many great performances. Both were reissued extensively in 3 channel on SACD. The RCA can still be found cheap, the MLP are all out of print.

So Living Stereo wasn't....stereo?
 

hvbias

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Just emphasizing, with video soundtracks, stereo PCM is always there to compare to surround. Maybe buy and play those on some 5.1 setup to get a feel for what is there.

If you're going to go down the film/HT route a surround setup is essential for a great experience. I think the video delays have been worked out with Acourate, so if DJ is planning to integrate video then a great surround setup is an awesome bonus for music.

I've never been a fan of having a do it all HT and music. I'd rather perfect the two for the different goals. If I had to take a guess, he would need different convolution setups for stereo and the various surround formats most popular with music (3.0, 4.0, 5.0, 5.1) and possibly need additional subwoofer(s) that would not be used with his multichannel stereo setup since Acourate doesn't work like most box DSPs I know of.

That is not what I said. I said that most multichannel recorded in this century is classical and I said that to exclude consideration of remixes/remasterings/synthetic releases.

My mistake, I've amended my post.

So Living Stereo wasn't....stereo?

Living Stereo name came out earlier on in the LP era, when stereo was the next cutting edge thing from mono. And it wouldn't be uncommon to proudly proclaim stereo sound on an LP jacket. Classical was the first genre to widely adopt stereo. Followed by jazz then lastly rock.

The SACDs include stereo redbook/stereo DSD/3 channel DSD (L/C/R).
 

Blumlein 88

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So Living Stereo wasn't....stereo?
The short answer is no. All Mercury early discs were mono which then switched to 3 channel mixed down to stereo.

RCAs were more variable, but many of them used 3 channel as well.
 
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dallasjustice

dallasjustice

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I think it's possible to have a multiple MCH configurations in Jriver. It sounds to me like I'd have to setup one zone for MCH recordings with LFE and another zone for the ones without LFE. Still without a convolver, this isn't possible with Roon; a real bummer.

Has Tidal released any MCH music yet?
 

Kal Rubinson

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I think it's possible to have a multiple MCH configurations in Jriver. It sounds to me like I'd have to setup one zone for MCH recordings with LFE and another zone for the ones without LFE.
Yup.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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I have some questions about multichannel music recordings. I'm interested to know how much consistency there is with available multi channel recordings.

1. I know there are very few MCH recording. How many channels is the most common arrangement?

2. Is there any standardization with regard to making these recordings? If so, what percentage of recordings follow this standard?

3. How is low frequency recorded? Are all the channels all pass frequencies? Or is there one or more high pass channels? Is there a single mono low frequency channel?

4. What number of channels is the most optimum playback setup for perceived sound quality?

5. What percentage of MCH recordings are classical music?

6. Is there any application to MCH recordings outside of classical music? If so, what other genres lend themselves to MCH recordings?
Kal has answered your questions, but let me add a few comments and further info from my own experience.

1. It depends. SACD Mch is usually 5.0, but it is occasionally 5.1. BD-A is usually always 5.1, but is occasionally 7.1. Same for BD-Video music releases.

2. The key standard is the ITU 5.0/5.1 speaker layout standard, which was included in the Scarlet Book spec for SACDs. In essence, that defines 5 identical, equidistant speakers at 0, +- 30 and +- 110 degrees relative to the sweet spot. Most every classical Mch recording adheres to this in mixing/mastering. Pop, etc. might or might not. DSP distance correction now compensates for the equidistant requirement. Bass management/subwoofers and DSP room correction help compensate for the identical speaker requirement.

3. With 5.0, obviously all input channels from the recording are full range. With .1, I am not sure. But, I use bass management in JRiver, which mixes any LFE .1 channel input together with the bass extracted from the other channels via the bass management xovers. So, it really does not matter. Prepros, AVRs and some players do the same thing routinely in their bass management.

4. I have a 7.1 system, but 5.1 is sufficient. There just are not that many Mch music recordings in 7.1. Actually, that is true for BD movies, too. 7.1 was a waste of money.

5. A very high percentage of Mch is classical. I do not have exact figures, but I would guess 75% or more. SACD still predominates for music. So see the excellent discography at:

http://www.hraudio.net/

I cannot recommend this site more highly.

6. The above site will answer your question by genre with some searches, I believe, once you get used to the site. But, as we know, Mch also totally predominates in the HT market. So, my friends and I typically have a combined HT/AV/music system with a monitor or screen/projector up front. Great sound is a pleasure when watching as well as when just listening to music.
 
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dallasjustice

dallasjustice

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But, I use bass management in JRiver, which mixes any LFE .1 channel input together with the bass extracted from the other channels via the bass management xovers. So, it really does not matter. Prepros, AVRs and some players do the same thing routinely in their bass management.

I don't understand.
 
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