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Multi-channel Amp,Which one you would like to own?

Which one you would like to own?

  • Total voters
    53
  • Poll closed .
Luvchampagne said:
Do you understand the difference in accuracy between a decent calibrated mic like a umik1 and a voltmeter?
With a umik1, at best you're at +/-0.5db. With a voltmeter you're easily at 0.1db.
No wonder you can tell the difference. Your volumes are more than likely 500%+ different than the standard used to differentiate amplifiers.

If you're one of those golden ears that think who cares about measurements, you listen with your ears. Then try this one - take the amp you don't like. Make the volume slightly louder. Do a blind test. Research shows you will probably like the one that is louder.

Don't believe me. Do the math.
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It's not about liking, it's about amps reproducing music in a complex system with passive loudspeakers changing i.e. impedance depending on the frequency.
I accept your math, but this is the best I can do, and I have been doing this for more than 30 years. I already tried. I played the A5 with +3db, and still, there is a remarkable sound difference between the two. I'm not able to do amp measurements like Amir. I believe the PMA delivers quite another level of current.
And golden ears- no way.
Do the test with your setup, and you'll hear a difference between the amps.
I really like and believe in measurements, but it's a bit like describing a wine based on a scientific analysis of the ingredients in the barrel. Not doing a tasting in different environments and moods. Even if you don't get all the differences between the reproduction of all frequencies, there is still a tendency.
There is still much more impact coming from the room than the amp when you listen to music.
Based on my experience, people listening to music through reproduction systems don't always prefer the components with the best measurements. Music perception is subjective.
I would love to invite you to a listening session, based on your calibration, but Playa Del Rey is too far from Germany to do that.
 
Yes perception is subjective.

But that means that there should be no objective difference (as revealed by proper blind ABX)

between 2 amps that both measure as audibly transparent.

Thus your difference in perception is from

A. non-audio bias factors or

B. improperly designed testing

If you are OK with accepting that, fine, just be clear about that rather than claiming one amp "sounds different" outside of those contexts.
 
@3eaudio,

You have sent other amplifiiers to @amirm for measurement.

Have you sent one of these multichannel amplifiers to Amir for measurement ?

thank you
 
john61ct said:
Yes perception is subjective.

But that means that there should be no objective difference (as revealed by proper blind ABX)

between 2 amps that both measure as audibly transparent.

Thus your difference in perception is from

A. non-audio bias factors or

B. improperly designed testing

If you are OK with accepting that, fine, just be clear about that rather than claiming one amp "sounds different" outside of those contexts.
Click to expand...

Several factors beyond standard steady-state measurements, i.e. THD, SNR, frequency response, create audible differences.

Standard lab tests use resistive loads, sine waves, and steady states. I trust measurements, but music is dynamic, reactive, and broadband. The gap between those two worlds is where the differences live.

Non-linearities with real loads do exist. Speaker impedance curves vary wildly compared to resistive test loads. Damping factor and output impedance shape bass tightness and dynamics differently from amp to amp. Intermodulation distortion (IMD) often matters more than THD. Two amps with identical THD can have very different harmonic spectra and IMD profiles on complex loads.

Dynamic and transient behaviors also differ due to slew rate and transient intermodulation distortion (TIM). This affects edge sharpness and stereo separation on complex passages. Power supply regulation varies as well, so voltage sag and recovery speed under current spikes can differ, especially with demanding speakers.

Additional effects like phase and timing play a role. Group delay variation and phase response outside the audible band can alter spatial cues and "air," while channel crosstalk and ground topology affect imaging width.
 
blickpunkt said:
Non-linearities with real loads do exist. Speaker impedance curves vary wildly compared to resistive test loads.
Click to expand...
A reactive load is not non-linear (I don't know what you mean with music being reactive), though. Performance into reactive loads are easy to measure and can be found in every of Amir's current amplifier reviews. There's absolutely nothing "dynamic" or unexpected or ever- hanging to reactive loads. Load dependency has nothing to do with different amounts of power and (because the behavior is still fully linear) the response to any input signal can be modelled from a series of responses with pure sine input signals.

Of course, real world speakers do show non-linear behavior depending on input power, but that's the same for all amplifiers. There's no design magically making a speaker less non-linear than it is. Cheaply designed speakers might even show a meaningful deviation in impedance when driven hard for some time or maybe even with high power pulses. But again, that's purely a characteristic.of the speaker. A "better" amp won't drive a bad speaker better than a "worse" amp.

blickpunkt said:
Damping factor and output impedance shape bass tightness and dynamics differently from amp to amp. Intermodulation distortion (IMD) often matters more than THD. Two amps with identical THD can have very different harmonic spectra and IMD profiles on complex loads.
Click to expand...
Yes, and all this can be measured easily and it is actually measured (in most cases). A "complex load" is not necessarily a "complicated load". This term is often used assuming a meaning that isn't really there. Engineers do describe impedance values using complex numbers. It's pure math, nothing special or secret about it.

I agree that some amplifier designs will work better into reactive loads than others. That's a fact. A measurable fact, though. Looking at just e.g. THD only would be short-sighted. I'm pretty sure that most knowledgeable readers here just take it as a first indication of performance, not as the single truth.

blickpunkt said:
Dynamic and transient behaviors also differ due to slew rate and transient intermodulation distortion (TIM). This affects edge sharpness and stereo separation on complex passages. Power supply regulation varies as well, so voltage sag and recovery speed under current spikes can differ, especially with demanding speakers.
Click to expand...
All true. And steady state measurements (including multi-tone and maby some bursts and square-wave signals) will reveal these differences.

blickpunkt said:
Additional effects like phase and timing play a role. Group delay variation and phase response outside the audible band can alter spatial cues and "air," while channel crosstalk and ground topology affect imaging width.
Click to expand...
I won't comment on "timing" or "imaging" knowing about ground topology.
 
Last edited:
I wait for the upcoming measurements for the PMA setting and stop discussing/arguing.
And refer to Erin
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm very interested in a technical review of the PMA series, too. I also think that a calibrated mic is sufficient to proof level matching.
 
I didn't like the ALSOZONE logo, so I updated it :cool:
 

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blickpunkt said:
I wait for the upcoming measurements for the PMA setting and stop discussing/arguing.
And refer to Erin
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harkpabst said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm very interested in a technical review of the PMA series, too. I also think that a calibrated mic is sufficient to proof level matching.
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Why do you think there would be any—or even significant—deviations between the individual channels of the A5 and PAM15x or the A7 and PAM25x?
According to both statements from 3E Audio and the measurement data published so far, these amplifiers should be identical and show no differences.
 
I'm just interested. Why shouldn't there be any deviation with these new single channel boards featuring a new layout (even if the topology was exactly the same) and a new case with built-in PSU?
 
harkpabst said:
I'm just interested. Why shouldn't there be any deviation with these new single channel boards featuring a new layout (even if the topology was exactly the same) and a new case with built-in PSU?
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For one thing, 3E Audio has already published the measurement data in the manual; these are virtually identical to those of the A5/A7, or in some cases marginally worse (by about 1%).
So far, 3E Audio’s measurements have proven very reliable.

For another, the same circuit—which is already pushed to the limit—is used here as in the A5 and A7, both of which feature a dual-mono design. The components used also appear to be identical.
I am certain there will be minute differences in the measurements, but anything beyond that would really surprise me.

With a PAM152—which I had in my possession for an hour—there was absolutely no audible difference compared to the A5.
 
Roland68 said:
With a PAM152—which I had in my possession for an hour—there was absolutely no audible difference compared to the A5.
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Does your PAM152 it run cooler in comparison to A5?
 
Guddu said:
Does your PAM152 it run cooler in comparison to A5?
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As I mentioned, I only had the device for an hour; after that, it had to be wrapped as a gift (unfortunately not for me). That left time for only a quick stress test and a comparison with the A5.

I didn't notice any unnatural heating, and I’d say it runs a bit cooler. The cooling design of the PAM amplifiers is very well thought out, ensuring both adequate cooling and a consistent operating temperature.
 
If you mean by Amir, my impression is that queue waitlist is growing faster these days
 
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