MQA Sounds Really Good!

[Hugo9000]

Yes, competent lossy can handle gapless.

The problem is, few services are competent in that regard. The only lossy streaming service that I have used that handles gapless playback properly is Spotify, at least at the 320 setting in their desktop app. Even classical-only Idagio isn't gapless lmao!

When I had Qobuz, their lossless tiers all handled gapless (they occasionally broke it with an update, but fixed it again within hours), but their lossy tier did NOT provide gapless playback.

For those who don't listen to opera or other music that requires gapless, this isn't an issue. But for any streaming service that wishes to have broad appeal, it's ridiculous in 2020 to not be able to handle gapless, whether in lossy or lossless subscription tiers. For those who don't care about classical fans, think of the Pink Floyd fans! Isn't The Wall supposed to be gapless?

 

[mansr]

For those who don't care about classical fans, think of the Pink Floyd fans! Isn't The Wall supposed to be gapless?

If it had gaps, it would be called The Fence.

 

[Wes]

only during rain storms

 

[KozmoNaut]

Any competent streaming service employs buffers as a safeguard against adverse conditions. You are really reaching here.

A buffer can't push ~700 Kbit/s through a 384 Kbit/s pipe.

I'll remind you that I work in the telecommunications field and have a background in electronics and computing

 

[nugget]

I'll remind you that I work in the telecommunications field and have a background in electronics and computing

I‘m sure that describes many of us here. If my internet were reduced to sub 1mbit I’d consider that an outage and streaming audio will be the least of my concerns. During normal operation that’s simply not a realistic worry.

Looking at bandwidth graphs my lossless audio streaming is dwarfed by the HD Netflix stream that is playing while my girlfriend naps on the couch upstairs. Moreover, both are streaming just fine concurrently and I’m nowhere near the limit of my crappy, consumer, Comcast pipe to the internet. Your advice presumes a scarcity which simply isn’t the reality for most people in 2020. I’m reminded of my colleague at work who still harbors a deep-seated mistrust for any hard drive larger than 4GB because that kind of capacity can be impossible to fathom to those of us old enough to remember MFM and RLL drives. And yet, the state of technology advances out from under us and it’s healthy to try to keep up.

 

[StevenEleven]

Yes, competent lossy can handle gapless.

The problem is, few services are competent in that regard. The only lossy streaming service that I have used that handles gapless playback properly is Spotify, at least at the 320 setting in their desktop app. Even classical-only Idagio isn't gapless lmao!

When I had Qobuz, their lossless tiers all handled gapless (they occasionally broke it with an update, but fixed it again within hours), but their lossy tier did NOT provide gapless playback.

I tested the trial of Deezer and it had big gaps but the free trial is lossy so I don't know if it's gapless for lossless.

(The second site of the Beatles Abbey Road is a great test for gapless--quick, revealing and efficient.)

For those who don't listen to opera or other music that requires gapless, this isn't an issue. But for any streaming service that wishes to have broad appeal, it's ridiculous in 2020 to not be able to handle gapless, whether in lossy or lossless subscription tiers. For those who don't care about classical fans, think of the Pink Floyd fans! Isn't The Wall supposed to be gapless?

Good info. I was testing out Qobuz (at 44.1 / 16) vs. Amazon HD for gapless last night. Amazon tries to handle it, but at least on my gear, there is still a brief little gap, and it annoys the hell out of me.

I'd rather have gapless lossy (Spotify) than gappy lossless (Amazon)!!!!

If anyone has any different experiences (not opinions) I'd be very interested.

I do 44.1/16--preferrably Qobuz--because if I apply EQ, upmixed surround, crossfeed, etc., DSP, I am not sure how the missing data of lossy based on auditory masking will affect the signal processing--the effects of the DSP not having the disproportionately chucked out info could be audible. A recording engineer has informed me that bluetooth may even be better than a well-crafted lossy codec that relies on auditory masking. Bluetooth (if not AAC) is proportionally reduced so that the general proportions of the spectrum are maintained, IIRC, so DSP is likely to work more similarly with a proportionate higher bitrate lossy file (bluetooth) than a lossy file that takes chunks of information because you can't hear it in naked stereo, i.e., that which is disproportionately expendable due to auditory masking.

I just started using lossless when Amazon introduced it and then when Qobuz dropped their prices--within the last few months. I don't let anything over 24/48 in my house.

 

[KozmoNaut]

I‘m sure that describes many of us here. If my internet were reduced to sub 1mbit I’d consider that an outage and streaming audio will be the least of my concerns. During normal operation that’s simply not a realistic worry.

Looking at bandwidth graphs my lossless audio streaming is dwarfed by the HD Netflix stream that is playing while my girlfriend naps on the couch upstairs. Moreover, both are streaming just fine concurrently and I’m nowhere near the limit of my crappy, consumer, Comcast pipe to the internet. Your advice presumes a scarcity which simply isn’t the reality for most people in 2020. I’m reminded of my colleague at work who still harbors a deep-seated mistrust for any hard drive larger than 4GB because that kind of capacity can be impossible to fathom to those of us old enough to remember MFM and RLL drives. And yet, the state of technology advances out from under us and it’s healthy to try to keep up.

Once again, I am talking about mobile data, not a fixed fat pipe connection. The vast majority of people using streaming are streaming to a mobile device of some kind, while on the go, the do not have the luxury of fiber or coax, they have to content with the very real world of unreliable speeds, unreliable coverage and data caps.

The state of technology advances, alright. It advances towards better and better lossy codecs, for higher efficiency and wider coverage for more people. Just compare Opus to MP3 and see how far we've advanced.

 

[nugget]

Once again, I am talking about to mobile data, not a fixed fat pipe connection.

Have you missed the fact that you’re the only one who is restricting the discussion to mobile data? You’ve certainly not restricted your judgement about lossless streaming to only mobile use in the thread. If you intended to say that lossless mobile streaming is silly then you probably wouldn’t have gotten nearly as much resistance from the other posters. Looking back on the thread that certainly has not been clear from your posts.

 

[gikigill]

Once again, I am talking about mobile data, not a fixed fat pipe connection. The vast majority of people using streaming are streaming to a mobile device of some kind, while on the go, the do not have the luxury of fiber or coax, they have to content with the very real world of unreliable speeds, unreliable coverage and data caps.

The state of technology advances, alright. It advances towards better and better lossy codecs, for higher efficiency and wider coverage for more people. Just compare Opus to MP3 and see how far we've advanced.

Let me fix all the problems of speed, coverage and data caps and storage for you in a few images.

BTW you can save lossless on your phone with your Tidal subscription so bandwidth isn't even that much of a concern.


.

 

[KozmoNaut]

Have you missed the fact that you’re the only one who is restricting the discussion to mobile data? You’ve certainly not restricted your judgement about lossless streaming to only mobile use in the thread. If you intended to say that lossless mobile streaming is silly then you probably wouldn’t have gotten nearly as much resistance from the other posters. Looking back on the thread that certainly has not been clear from your posts.

All lossless streaming is silly, mobile lossless streaming especially so. That should clear it up.

 

[BDWoody]

[

All lossless streaming is silly, mobile lossless streaming especially so. That should clear it up.

I like streaming lossless, whenever possible. It's just fun.

 

[KozmoNaut]

Let me fix all the problems of speed, coverage and data caps and storage for you in a few images.

BTW you can save lossless on your phone with your Tidal subscription so bandwidth isn't even that much of a concern.


.View attachment 48157View attachment 48158View attachment 48159

Good for you, you have an extremely uncommonly good subscription.

Tell that to people who live in areas with low coverage and 10GB data caps.

Sure, you can download and save tracks while on WiFi. I can do that too, without using a pointless intermediary streaming service.

Audiophiles sure are special..

 

[nugget]

All lossless streaming is silly, mobile lossless streaming especially so. That should clear it up.

When you buy a CD and then rip it, do you make a lossless version for archival and then also a lossy version for listening? Local listening is just streaming from disk.

How about if you listened to tracks stored on a local NAS? That’s streaming too.

The same reason why you wouldn’t hesitate to stream a lossless file off a local NAS is precisely why I don’t give a second thought to streaming over the internet. The bandwidth used is inconsequential.

 

[BDWoody]

When you buy a CD and then rip it, do you make a lossless version for archival and then also a lossy version for listening?

I think you're wasting your breath... It isn't about seeing another point it seems...
He's all yours...

 

[KozmoNaut]

Bye.

When you buy a CD and then rip it, do you make a lossless version for archival and then also a lossy version for listening? Local listening is just streaming from disk.

How about if you listened to tracks stored on a local NAS? That’s streaming too.

The same reason why you wouldn’t hesitate to stream a lossless file off a local NAS is precisely why I don’t give a second thought to streaming over the internet. The bandwidth used is inconsequential.

I archive a lossless copy, and put a lossy encode on my phone. Not that complicated.

I know you're just being facetious and pretending to not know what streaming is in order to lazily troll, but if you truly cannot see the difference between a 6 Gbit/s SATA connection, a 1 Gbit/s Ethernet connection, a 300 Mbit/s cable connection, a ~50 Mbit/s 4G connection and a ~384 Kbit/s 3G connection, you need to hold your tongue, observe, listen and learn before you talk.

 

[Thomas savage]

Can we row back on the antagonism please .

 

[Eirikur]

[...] you need to hold your tongue, observe, listen and learn before you talk.

Please apply your own wisdom and heed the advise from Thomas - he just saved me from making a snarky remark at your expense!

Can we row back on the antagonism please .

 

[KozmoNaut]

Ain't no antagonizin' comin' from my end, hoss.

Purely educational content.

 

[dmac6419]

When you buy a CD and then rip it, do you make a lossless version for archival and then also a lossy version for listening? Local listening is just streaming from disk.

How about if you listened to tracks stored on a local NAS? That’s streaming too.

The same reason why you wouldn’t hesitate to stream a lossless file off a local NAS is precisely why I don’t give a second thought to streaming over the internet. The bandwidth used is inconsequential.

I used to make a 320 and Flac version for that very reason,I stream from jriver or plex while I'm out and about in the streets working

 

[DonH56]

Ain't no antagonizin' comin' from my end, hoss.

Purely educational content.

I know you're just being facetious and pretending to not know what streaming is in order to lazily troll, but if you truly cannot see the difference between a 6 Gbit/s SATA connection, a 1 Gbit/s Ethernet connection, a 300 Mbit/s cable connection, a ~50 Mbit/s 4G connection and a ~384 Kbit/s 3G connection, you need to hold your tongue, observe, listen and learn before you talk.

Maybe time to shut down another MQA thread...