MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

[amirm]

I'll take your word for it. The way I remember it was that Dolby Digital had a 5.1 solution when MPEG-2 was still only available for stereo. However, they may have been other issues at play that altered my memories because of the diverging standards PAL/SECAM and NTSC back then.

It is an inside story you only hear from me having sat across my counterparts in Japanese companies who hated, absolutely hated the fact that Dolby jammed their codec into DVD when they wanted MPEG audio which can do multi-channel (although such was never used for real service).

Here is more to read on multi-channel MPEG: https://www.aes.org/e-lib/online/browse.cfm?elib=6367

The MPEG-2 Audio standard defines multi-channel extensions to the MPEG-1 standard. Up to five full audio band width channels plus sub woofer channel and up to seven additional multi lingual channels are defined in the transmission format. However, due to the backward compatibility to MPEG-1, the overall bit rate which is available for all these channels is limited. On simpler systems a tradeoff between the number of channels and the audio quality is necessary. This paper describes an advanced MPEG-2 multi-channel system based on MPEG Audio Layer III.

 

[AdamG]

Please do not start politics, as it’s forbidden. But from “a foot in the door” point of view - absolutely!

I didn’t start it, you did. So try again on the redirect please.

 

[levimax]

Dorsey did not invest in MQA. He invested in Tidal. Tidal could get rid of MQA overnight and switch to Flac high-res streaming the moment MQA tries to milk them for royalties. Indeed they are life and death for MQA. It would be incredibly foolish for MQA to make demands from them given the clear alternative they have.

OK it will be fun to watch it play out....

 

[KeenObserver]

They will think that until the day the bank closes their doors. The best argument you all have for your fear of MQA is what you stated above: they are losing money and that ultimately will shut them down if they don't turn it around. Or turn it around enough to do an IPO.

The fund availability for such a specialized business plan is miniscule. It is not like you can walk in front of a VC or investment banker and say, "oh, check out these high res files." They will say they are not even using CD streaming let alone care about high-res.

So bask in the confidence that there is much higher chance of MQA going out of business than it succeeding. I give them 2 out of 10 odds of making it.

They will think that until the day the bank closes their doors. The best argument you all have for your fear of MQA is what you stated above: they are losing money and that ultimately will shut them down if they don't turn it around. Or turn it around enough to do an IPO.

The fund availability for such a specialized business plan is miniscule. It is not like you can walk in front of a VC or investment banker and say, "oh, check out these high res files." They will say they are not even using CD streaming let alone care about high-res.

So bask in the confidence that there is much higher chance of MQA going out of business than it succeeding. I give them 2 out of 10 odds of making it.

Reinet is a major player. They have Billions. They are smart players and would not keep dumping money into MQA unless they expected to make a major payday.

 

[amirm]

...because I bough Lightning DS for/with Auralic. Do I now need to pay - what is it, $500, $700/life? - for Roon?

You paid thousands of dollars for your streamer and are bulking paying for Roon???

That aside, Auralic should implement MQA for the amount of money they already charge you for their products.

 

[gatucho]

Using what? Tidal player or Roon? If so, both of them decode MQA in software and give you higher technical quality than CD. How did you get cheated?

Don't get me wrong my chain supports MQA (I even have a MQA Dac), but I would loss EQ capability. I know that roon supports it, but that would imply additional costs. Without mentioning that my current preferred platform does not support roon.

So in the best case scenario, Tidal pushing MQA is a major annoyance, worse case it would imply expending more. And for what, for supposed improvements which I don't believe I need (from what I understand for 44khz16bit it would only be supersonics, when I can hardly listen upward 16khz)

So yes, I will bash MQA for as long as I believe that my position will be listened. Or simply cancel everything.

 

[KeenObserver]

Reinet, along with Warner, Universal, and Sony, are stockholders in MQA.
Why do they all think that there is a major payday coming?

 

[RichB]

No. The main point is that where MQA is heavily distributed is in Tidal and its App and Roon both decode it to "better than CD" technical specs.

There are MQA encoded 44.1/16 bit streams with MQA encoding available using Tidal's Hi Fi plan.
When streamed, this is 1411 KBPS, the exact rate advertised by title.
So either some bits are replaced or they are note. This cannot be decoded to better than "better than CD" technical specs.

I missed the good old days, when you were a proponent of the best possible master, Hi-Res audio::

Sound Quality Comparison of Hi-Res Audio vs. CD vs. MP3 | Sony US

Have you responded to Archimago about the analysis of audio deranged by MQA processing?
I know, pish posh.

- Rich

 

[gatucho]

Unfortunately, I don't have the patience to go thru 1700 posts.. But my view is - if 3 of the 16 bits of a 44.1/16 Flac have been usurped by MQA, and these 3 bits render as noise on non-MQA enabled systems, then the Flac has been adulterated and I want no part of it. I should have the choice to accept the adulteration, or not. Not be forced to take it.

Is the 3-bit usurpation correct?

It is, but some will try to convince you that it is for your own benefit. IFF you make your chain MQA compliant... So yes, you can either bend your knee to MQA, live with reduced dynamic range or abandon ship.

 

[amirm]

Reinet is a major player. They have Billions. They are smart players and would not keep dumping money into MQA unless they expected to make a major payday.

They clearly got some bankers interested at the start. A few years later though when they go back to the well, the situation is very different. Dreams are compared to reality before a new check is written. Necks will be squeezed real hard if the results are not there.

 

[Raindog123]

You paid thousands of dollars for your streamer and are bulking paying for Roon??

...even the best of them are prone to wrong stereotypes. If you must know, my Auralic was Aries Mini, bought it over 5 years ago for what, about $600 as my foot into digital streaming... As for your other comment, yes, at this stage of my life I can part with a thousand bucks, but I would rather donate it to those in need, or pay toward my kids’ colleges, or treat me with a new Range Rover... We, rich people, do not like to throw money away.

 

[amirm]

I missed the good old days, when you were a proponent of the best possible master, Hi-Res audio::

I have a large library of high-res content and advocate getting content in whatever way it was stereo mixed. I consume countless hours of content on Tidal every day and it is 1 out of 100 tracks that is MQA encoded if that. It simply has no impact on my life. And for reasons that I have mentioned, I don't see them making such an impact on the industry. This doesn't make me a proponent of MQA by the way. It could disappear tomorrow and I would be fine without it.

I post here because I just can't stand the improper arguments being thrown around. It is that which interests me to post. Not because I care about MQA one bit.

 

[amirm]

...even the best of them are prone to wrong stereotypes. If you must know, my Auralic was Aries Mini, bought it over 5 years ago for what, about $600 as my foot into digital streaming... As for your other comment, yes, at this stage of my life I can part a thousand bucks, but I would rather donate it to those in need, or pay toward my kids’ colleges, or treat me with a new Range Rover... We, rich people, do not like to throw money away.

Roon player is incredibly nice though. Take its built-in EQ. It makes a massive improvement in fidelity of both speakers and headphones yet costs nothing and is fully integrated and easy to use in the player itself. That is reason enough to adopt it and be done with it.

 

[Raindog123]

A decoded MQA is not less than a CD. It is more.

Do you have a proof of this ‘more’? The AES paper (from McGill University) I posted a few pages back says otherwise.

 

[gatucho]

Can you please clarify if this claim applies to both 24-bit and 16-bit MQA encoding?

Jajaja good luck... With him saying that supersonics are encoded in MQA using perception-based considerations (perception from who?!, bats?)

IMO 16bit MQA: AVOID,
24bit MQA: you may get what you are looking for (i.e. unlistenable supersonics, without a real loss of dynamic range)

Hell, if Tidal was only pushing 24bit MQA I wouldn't really care. It is the loss of REAL CD quality what bothers me.

Edit: sorry if my tone is inappropriate, I'm just baffled with all of this

 

[gatucho]

Roon player is incredibly nice though. Take its built-in EQ. It makes a massive improvement in fidelity of both speakers and headphones yet costs nothing and is fully integrated and easy to use in the player itself. That is reason enough to adopt it and be done with it.

The day I can use roon on the go without network connection I will consider it. Otherwise... It is a no...
And a whole format depending on a SINGLE software for it to really functional (I'm referring to EQ capability) is kind of silly

 

[KeenObserver]

They clearly got some bankers interested at the start. A few years later though when they go back to the well, the situation is very different. Dreams are compared to reality before a new check is written. Necks will be squeezed real hard if the results are not there.

The results have not been there since its inception in 2014. They would not have continued dumping money into it if they did not ultimately expect a major payday.

 

[Raindog123]

Roon player is incredibly nice though. Take its built-in EQ. It makes a massive improvement in fidelity of both speakers and headphones yet costs nothing and is fully integrated and easy to use in the player itself. That is reason enough to adopt it and be done with it.

I agree, and this is why I ditched Auralic - thanks to your site, replaced it with a Modi/RPi3 - and now have Roon. Annual subscription though, so far.

 

[amirm]

Reinet, along with Warner, Universal, and Sony, are stockholders in MQA.
Why do they all think that there is a major payday coming?

They don't. It is standard practice for these start ups to give stock to content owners. It greases the skids, gets you an announcement and a few positive nods. The list of companies who have gone out of business despite such overtures is miles long. The content owners will NOT come to your rescue they day you go under. They have their business model and chase that. And that business model for record labels is that they take money and hand you content. They don't dictate formats.

 

[amirm]

The results have not been there since its inception in 2014. They would not have continued dumping money into it if they did not ultimately expect a major payday.

The "expectation" has limited life. After you go through a few rounds, they cut their losses and move on. Nothing like market reality to demonstrate if the original business plan was right or not. With 7 years gone by, the caught fish will start to stink at some point.....