MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

[voodooless]

Having 2 separate prices for gear like this gives us a pretty good idea of the hardware license fee... without any NDAs being broken.

Something around the US$30 mark.

If so, the sales figures in the financial report are vastly understated.

 

[TulseLuper]

https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/489.html

$170 to add MQA to the mini-i 3.

 

[RichB]

https://www.matrix-digi.com/en/products/489.html

$170 to add MQA to the mini-i 3.

The money would have been better spent adding an amp trigger for a device that ships with a remote and XLR outputs.
Better yet, add PEQ/REQ. Of course, adding those requires figuring if MQA users are allowed to use them without papal consent.

- Rich

 

[John Atkinson]

In regards to the >20khz noise I partially agree. No its likely not all that important. But the fact that it's there is still concerning.

Still working my way through the messages in this thread. What you are seeing in the spectral analysis is the effect of noise-shaping. This is not uncommon. For example, following my experience of the POWR and Apogee UV22 noise-shaping algorithms, I tend to use 3rd-order noise-shaping when preparing the CD masters of my recordings. The level of the noise in the top half-octave that you show is higher than in my CD masters, but I can confidently predict that at -45dBFS it will be inaudible.

And in response to those who are concerned with the presence of ultrasonic noise, both class-D amplifiers and DSD encoding also produce relatively high levels of ultrasonic noise. See, for example,fig.1 at https://www.stereophile.com/content/super-audio-cd-rich-report-page-2

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

[Mountain Goat]

I imagine Amazon has less cost than Tidal has based on their infrastructure

Tidal runs on Amazon Web Services (AWS). I work with these things.

https://career.tidal.com/data-engineer-1

 

[AdamG]

They appear to come equipped with the blue-light authentication (key feature).
View attachment 125838

- Rich

I was not endorsing MQA one way or the other. Simply answering questions raised earlier in thread. But to be exact, in the case of the Bolt, the Blue light = SD Audio <= 48kHz. While Red = HD Audio => 48kHz. Lastly the Magenta = MQA. .

 

[Raindog123]

Lastly the Magenta = MQA. .

The same with Dragonfly Cobalt... and EarMen Sparrow:

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

The same with Dragonfly Cobalt... and EarMen Sparrow:

View attachment 125850

if i see my dap with the mqa logo i just gonna vomit the entire dap

 

[Raindog123]

if i see my dap with the mqa logo i just gonna...

Maybe you need to see a doctor..?

 

[RichB]

Still working my way through the messages in this thread. What you are seeing in the spectral analysis is the effect of noise-shaping. This is not uncommon. For example, following my experience of the POWR and Apogee UV22 noise-shaping algorithms, I tend to use 3rd-order noise-shaping when preparing the CD masters of my recordings. The level of the noise in the top half-octave that you show is higher than in my CD masters, but I can confidently predict that at -45dBFS it will be inaudible.

And in response to those who are concerned with the presence of ultrasonic noise, both class-D amplifiers and DSD encoding also produce relatively high levels of ultrasonic noise. See, for example,fig.1 at https://www.stereophile.com/content/super-audio-cd-rich-report-page-2

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

Must we all jump off the bridge

Do we know for certain that the presence of ultrasonics have the potential to modulate into the audible range on some systems?
If the potential exists, you'd think avoiding them could be beneficial?

- Rich

 

[Grooved]

The money would have been better spent adding an amp trigger for a device that ships with a remote and XLR outputs.

Except that if some are adding $30 for MQA supports, it would mean in this case it's $30 for adding MQA and $140 in pure benefits for Matrix.
In this case, I won't defend the manufacturer

Tidal runs on Amazon Web Services (AWS). I work with these things.

Right, what I wanted to highlight is that Amazon cost can be his own operating cost, while Tidal is paying them more for the same bandwidth.

I was not endorsing MQA one way or the other. Simply answering questions raised earlier in thread. But to be exact, in the case of the Bolt, the Blue light = SD Audio <= 48kHz. While Red = HD Audio => 48kHz. Lastly the Magenta = MQA. .

the product you linked is a full decoder.

Are you sure this Hiby is a full decoding+rendering DAC and not just a rendering one ?
They may exist but which DAC is doing MQA decoding+rendering and is not using Blue or Green ?
The last DAC I got can process MQA and has Blue or Green light when it's doing all processing, and Magenta only if decoding is done before (like by Roon or Tidal app, if I set it to do that).
So I thought that Magenta was always linked to the rendering only, once decoding is done.

We can rely on manufacturer presentation, they are a lot mixing terms like decoding and rendering the way they like it, and there are already using while their DAC is only rendering (I think a iFi is in this case)

On a side note, I just watched the youtube video from Helm regarding the Helm Bolt MQA :

It's insane, it looks like a MQA advertising more than a Helm Bolt one :
- affirms a better quality in MQA than in PCM
- "unfolds MQA stream back into the same quality as the originally mix" No, it can come from the original mix, it doesn't mean it's the same.

In the end, MQA themselves are making nicer than it is, but some manufacturer too
I'm not saying it's really bad either, just that they are lying on some points, and there's no authority to make them change that.

 

[AdamG]

 

[usersky]

How long before bandwidth is so accessible as to make even any lossless compression routine just something not needed?

2 years ago?

 

[Honken]

Tidal runs on Amazon Web Services (AWS). I work with these things.
https://career.tidal.com/data-engineer-1

I do wonder what impact Spotify's move to GCP had on their bottom line.

I work in this area as well, and I'm very thankful our customers aren't binging on data. It gets very expensive if you're paying the list prices. I wonder if Tidal do, considering that they're sort of direct competitors to Amazon.

 

[Grooved]

Tidal runs on Amazon Web Services (AWS). I work with these things.
https://career.tidal.com/data-engineer-1

I do wonder what impact Spotify's move to GCP had on their bottom line.

I work in this area as well, and I'm very thankful our customers aren't binging on data. It gets very expensive if you're paying the list prices. I wonder if Tidal do, considering that they're sort of direct competitors to Amazon.

Looking at this link, I found something funny :
"TIDAL has the commitment of artist owners that believe in creating a more sustainable model for the music industry. The founding TIDAL artist-owners are Alicia Keys, Arcade Fire (Win Butler and Regine Chassagne), Beyoncé, Calvin Harris, Coldplay, Daft Punk, Deadmau5, Jack White, Jason Aldean, J. Cole, Kanye West, Madonna, Nicki Minaj, Rihanna, Shawn "JAY Z" Carter, Damian Marley, Indochine, Lil Wayne, and Usher. "

I took the first ones :
Alicia Keys, and... she has all his albums in 16bit FLAC, no MQA at all. Does not work with Warner
Which could mean that it was never artists who pushed for MQA in Tidal, but more the marketing team, and not sure if it's Tidal marketing team but more between some labels and MQA.

Same thing for Arcade Fire, Calvin Harris. No MQA, and not working with Warner.
Beyoncé, no Warner, has only 1 MQA out of 18 albums. And then MQA says it's what the artists want us to listen...

First to comes with MQA is Coldplay, work with Warner.
In the discography view in Roon, they have also FLAC but they come from Qobuz... will check the Tidal versions

I will now check if the DAC is confirming all FLAC, or if some of these FLAC has been converted into MQA
If it's a fake FLAC, like a 16bit MQA put in the Hifi catalog but not said to be MQA, the DAC will light Green or Blue. I can analyse more if needed.

EDIT : after a fast check
- all Tidal files from Coldplay have been converted to MQA, with exception that some album versions still have a version in 16/44.1 FLAC if using Hifi setting.
- for each album, the highest (matching the highest from Qobuz FLAC) if in 24bit (44.1, 96 or 192) is lighting Blue, and the lower version in 16bit MQA is lighting Green (they are made from the 44.1 original version, not from the highest master).

This means Blue is not authenticated by artists or labels as sounding like them wanted to, but certified it was lade from the highest master available, and that it's not a 16bit one.
The album with 24/44.1 is turning Blue for example (and it's also in 24/44.1 at best on Qobuz)
And Green are made from 16/44.1 versions, even if the highest available is 16/44.1 on Qobuz, it's here a 16/44.1 MQA and it's Green because labels/artists may have a higher one they not sent, most surely as everyone is working at least in 24bit.

We may conclude that MQA, some manufacturers and some media are playing with words, changing what the colors really means.

Another test : Daft Punk (work with EMI, of which a part has been integrated in Warner)
Last album "Random Access Memories" is real FLAC but 16/44.1 only on Tidal, while Qobuz has 24/88.2 (real one as mastering of this one was made at this frequency)
The previous albums have mainly been converted in 16bit MQA.

Jay-Z and Nicki Minaj have MQA (not all) and are linked with Universal Music.
Damian Marley, linked with Universal has only his last album in MQA, and it's on the 24bit version. The 16bit is real FLAC.
Usher is linked with RCA (Sony) and has no MQA on Tidal, only 16bit FLAC, while some 24bit versions are on Qobuz.

So it looks like Warner is converting all tracks, and Universal has done it on latest tracks and sometimes only on 24bit versions.
The ones linked with Sony (which includes Columbia, Epic, RCA...) don't have MQA, it seems.

In case it can change something since most of these artists are not pushing for MQA : they are still in Tidal, Dorsey bought a majority, reducing their shares (each previously had 3%, except Jay-Z).

 

[raistlin65]

They appear to come equipped with the blue-light authentication (key feature).
View attachment 125838

- Rich

Maybe we could make a green light that comes on on a DAC when it is playing sampling and bit rates higher than CD quality. I wonder how much audiophiles would pay extra for that?

But we'd have to come up with a fancy acronym.

 

[RichB]

Maybe we could make a green light that comes on on a DAC when it is playing sampling and bit rates higher than CD quality. I wonder how much audiophiles would pay extra for that?

But we'd have to come up with a fancy acronym.

Perhaps a mood ring, red for late night sexy

- Rich

 

[AdamG]

I’ll put on the Barry White album for ya!

 

[mansr]

Maybe we could make a green light that comes on on a DAC when it is playing sampling and bit rates higher than CD quality. I wonder how much audiophiles would pay extra for that?

But we'd have to come up with a fancy acronym.

NQA, Native Quality Audio.

 

[Jimbob54]

Maybe we could make a green light that comes on on a DAC when it is playing sampling and bit rates higher than CD quality. I wonder how much audiophiles would pay extra for that?

But we'd have to come up with a fancy acronym.

The real audiophiles would pay extra to disable the LED because that interferes with the signal, man.