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MQA Deep Dive - I published music on tidal to test MQA

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pjug

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Something I am not clear about regarding having content encoded in MQA (from the OP):

I did also create another 88.2khz track with the amount of ultrasonic content drastically reduced, and no white noise. But MQA removed all of my content from Tidal before this went live and so I was not able to test this.

So the encoding service does not give you the MQA files so that you are able to keep them?
 

John Atkinson

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John Atkinson wrote: "if you are going to publish opinions and test results that may result in financial consequences for those whom you write about, you must do so under your actual name."

Who says? You? Or are you just talking about policy at Stereophile?

This is both the rule at Stereophile and general journalistic practice.

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile
 

dmac6419

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Ok. I think you are right. I am still never going to buy a MQA DAC or music though. CD quality is good for me and the secritivness and marketing MQA uses are not for me.
That's the part that I don't understand in all this,if your never gonna buy a MQA CD or DAC, why is MQA owning a large chunk of real estate in y'all head's.?
 

sandymc

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Can someone explain this, please ?

part of a 24/96 FLAC file from Qobuz - directly loaded in the software (to confirm with the one below that the digital recording does not change the signal)


Same 24/96 FLAC file from Qobuz play in Roon and digitally recorded from Roon output, then loaded in the software

Same track but 24/48 MQA played and decoded with Core Decoder of Roon to 24/96, digitally recorded from Roon output, then loaded in the software
View attachment 132820

You don't show the X and Y scales, but at a glance, that is consistent with the HF "noise" that the various other pieces of analysis on MQA have detected.
 

Grooved

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You are trying to quantify how well the MQA tracks PCM? I don't think you can get anything meaningful from your eyeball analysis. You could run DeltaWave comparing decoded MQA vs PCM files.
Yes and I only know this thanks to the OP of this thread. He posted it somewhere so thanks for that (possibly here but maybe it was another site). Audirvana and VB-Cable Hi-Fi into Audacity should do bit perfect captures.
Hi guys, your messages show that it's hard to follow every posts on this thread, maybe I should have created another thread for that, but I already posted here at least two times what you're talking about ;-)
On the previous page, I show some signals from the same track :
- one from the FLAC file directly
- one from the digital recording of the same FLAC file, which looks matching the original file (so the digital recording method I used should be OK, but I will do a null test on this)
- one from the digital recording of the MQA file after decoding

Here is the Null test from DeltaWave of the last track I check (the one we were talking some pages ago, bought by one member and that appeared to be a 44.1kHz upsampled to 96kHz (fake HiRes)

Null test between 24/96 FLAC file and MQA 24/48 decoded to 24/96 :
PK Metric.PNG


NOTE : Deltawave is used here with @pkane setting from the DA-AD loopback test where I get 107.9dBFS on my device (don't used in this test as this one is fully digital)
Maybe we need to use different settings

If I do the same with the original FLAC file and its digital recorded version, it gives this result :
PK Metric Qobuz original - Qobuz recorded.PNG


So I may need to disable the non-linear feature, in this case, the original FLAC file and its digital recorded version gives this :
PK Metric (without non-linear feature) Qobuz original - Qobuz recorded.PNG


And in this case (without non-linear feature), MQA decoded get a higher PK Metric result, but a lower difference result :
PK Metric (without non-linear feature) Qobuz original - MQA decoded.PNG


You don't show the X and Y scales, but at a glance, that is consistent with the HF "noise" that the various other pieces of analysis on MQA have detected.
Right, I will check it again and add numbers, it was zoomed a lot

I don't think you can fully decode unless you make hardware to recapture the iis signal on the board. And there needs to be MQA filtering in the DAC.
You're perfectly right if we consider the full process up to the istening point, as they don't use the same filters, but if we want to compare the files themselves, we can stop before that after the decoding, as known as the first unfold, which may be the only real unfold as the folowwing looks more like upsampling if needed (for master of more than 24/96).

I was thinking that since DimitryZ post, we were talking of file only, so encoding only, and not what happens after that because the filter are different.
@DimitryZ , can you confirm that please ? because I checked your first post and didn't really find a test but only a graph.
 
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ergre

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That's the part that I don't understand in all this,if your never gonna buy a MQA CD or DAC, why is MQA owning a large chunk of real estate in y'all head's.?
As an internet citizen formats and openness are important to me. MQA being a trade secret is not ok for a format used as part of the internet. Luckily it seems it does not have a future if the big companies like apple and google are not going to use it but you never know.
 

Music1969

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Tidal took the initiative to push high-res online and did so with MQA. That likely had an influence on big guys trying to now offer high-res.

I'm pretty sure Apple and Spotify only reacted to Amazon's move...

The question is, was Amazon really thinking about Tidal as competition to make that first move among the big boys?

Or were Amazon just trying to differentiate from Apple and Spotify without any active interest in Tidal at all (this all happened pre Jack takeover of Tidal).

I think it was the latter but would only be a guess. Only an insider at Amazon could confirm why they launched hi-res.
 

UliBru

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The "how many bits at which sample rate" questions etc have been competely addressed by Bob Stuart in this paper. It does not deal with MQA directly but with the foundations for it -- the room available in a PCM coding channel for additional information, plus a wealth of other interesting things.
I have studied the BS paper and at the end I have questions without an answer.
It is clear for me that the MQA approach tries to get a perceptually lossless result in a data stream of reduced size by removing unnecessary data.
So let's assume this approach is a basic starting point.

Furthermore BS gives some more explanations:
1622464386664.png

and
The four listening scenarios listed at the start: a) No Decoder, b) A Core Decoder, c) A Full Decoder or d) when the stream is limited to 16b in playback, can each be previewed by Mastering tools, and also (in the supply chain) facilitated by a Pro-MQA Decoder. This enables a rights-holder to be certain of the sound arriving in all four scenarios from the same 24b distribution file and Authenticate it.

Ok, in his paper BS is arguing that 20 bit @ 58 kHz is sufficient to all playback situations in reference to the hearing threshold and max. level of 120 dB. It is convenient to use a standard rate of today, so 88.2 kHz or 96 kHz is ok.
Furthermore BS is talking about the power of a proper noise-shaped dithering and the application of pre- and de-emphasis.
All this sounds reasonable.

Now let's think about the origami folding.
A ist the range covered by the usual samplerates 44.1 kHz (or 48 kHz) at 16 bits. So I expect A to be correct with a playback a) or d) in comparison to e.g. a CD created by downsampling (and dithering) from a master track.

I do not know about a method to extract the 16 bit data to 22.05 kHz or 24 kHz without a proper anti-aliasing filter. But I also know that the filter is either linearphase (this introduces pre-ringing or "blur") or minimumphase (this introduces phase changes). There are many discussions about the audibility of brickwall filters.
A proper dithering method is fine but it changes or influences at least the least significant bit of the available 16 bits.
I do not really expect that a pre-emphasis is applied as there is no de-emphasis at the playback situations. But if there is a pre-emphasis there is definitely a loss in transparency.

So anyway an original MQA track of just 16 bits depth seems impossible. It would throw away too much information. At least 4 bits of the 20 bits BS has demanded in his paper. Pre-emphasis without de-empasis does not make sense. In best case we would get the same like with a CD which is claimed to be lossy.

But: as MQA has also to handle case a) and d) it must apply a brickwall filter and add dither (=noise) in the 16 bit range. Otherwise MQA would accept a playback with distortions (see BAS arguments about dither in his paper).

So when we expand the MQA track now to 24 bits it must contain noise at the 16 bit level despite we have more bits available. This may be transparent but it is not lossless.

Now B is added to the lower of the 24 bits. It contains 2 bands B1 and B2 created by "lossless" band split. If this is possible it would also make sense to split A and B lossless. But in case of a brickwall filter we may have an ideal filter = bands A + B1 do not overlap = ideal steep = endless ringing = blur. Or the two bands A and B1 will overlap. Because A and B1 gets further processed (e.g. bit reduction of A to 16 bits) the sum of the processed parts are not expected to match the original data in the transition area. Thus some real information will get lost. It is possible that the transparency is not considered to be lossy because the listener cannot detect this.

Adding B1 + B2 to the lower 4 bits of the 24 bits means that we have 20 bits left for music data coding. This would be ok (also according to the BS paper).
But of course there is the green line of MQA information coded into the stream. It looks like a higher bit is used for this, maybe bit 20. Ok, it is also said that the decoder will remove this completely.
It seems I must correct because "it is there so we can hear more of the music when playback is limited to a 16-bit stream". By this statement the MQA info is at the level of the least significant bit = noise again. This would mean that there is no dithering like TPDF or noise-shaping. Just information noise.

Summary:
There are some mysterious "lossless" operations in the MQA statements. But anyway there is a change of the original music content . A playback of the track without MQA decoder according to d) would show up more distortions in case of no dithering. An added dither would also show up as noise at higher level during the 24 bit playback. If the added dither consists of MQA confirmation it is not random and as it is told to be removed by the decoder the original data have to be stored somewhere else for recovery (e.g. shift of bits one bit level lower).
 
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Grooved

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I'm pretty sure Apple and Spotify only reacted to Amazon's move...
I may be wrong, but I think you're right except the timing : I would say that Spotify didn't wanted anymore to be 2 levels of quality behind the others, and so decided to go CD like quality, and then Apple decided to stay above Spotify quality and so need more than CD like quality.

MQA second step.png

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how can we use this graph ? Isn't it wrong ?
The X-axis is audio bandwidth and not sampling rate, so how they encapsulate C since it's the 48->96 part ?
I thought we already know that they use a 96kHz recording sampling rate, even for 176.4, 192 or higher masters, so their bandwidth is supposed to be limited to 48kHz, which means they should only encapsulated B under A. If any C information exist, it's the MQA tag to give to the DAC the possibility to know it's a MQA file.
I am wrong with that ?

The other point is that it deals with 24bit MQA files only, not with 16bit MQA
 
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Hi. I don’t know anything about audio engineering but I’m hoping someone can explain this to me.

Tidal uses MQA. Qobuz uses Flac. Couldn’t you just compare the same tracks between the two services and whatever the difference is is what MQA changes about the original? And then you’d know if they only changed things in the audible range or not?

I’m obviously missing something since if it were so simple there wouldn’t be so much hullabaloo, but I’m not sure what.
 

mediahound

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OP has superb skills when it comes to writing and voice over with that "BBC News" accent so folks believe what he says especially since what he says is what they want to hear..

So let me get this straight, you're attacking the guy’s accent saying he seems more credible than he is due to his British accent. Huh? Bob Stuart himself also has a British accent yet you seem to have no problem with that and do not attack his accent.

Your own logic can apply even more to Bob Stuart himself and all the 'just trust us' nonsense he spews about MQA.
 

levimax

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Hi. I don’t know anything about audio engineering but I’m hoping someone can explain this to me.

Tidal uses MQA. Qobuz uses Flac. Couldn’t you just compare the same tracks between the two services and whatever the difference is is what MQA changes about the original? And then you’d know if they only changed things in the audible range or not?

I’m obviously missing something since if it were so simple there wouldn’t be so much hullabaloo, but I’m not sure what.
Can't be sure it is same mastering.
 

Music1969

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I may be wrong, but I think you're right except the timing : I would say that Spotify didn't wanted anymore to be 2 levels of quality behind the others, and so decided to go CD like quality, and then Apple decided to stay above Spotify quality and so need more than CD like quality.

Yep sorry i mixed hi-res with CD quality.

What I should have said is, I don't think Spotify and Apple cared about 'lossless' because of Tidal... it was in reaction to Amazon's lossless.

And I don't think Amazon made the first lossless move (among big boys) in reaction to Tidal either... it was to offer something different to Spotify and Apple.

I don't think Tidal had any effect on any of these big moves we are seeing.

But since Jack D acquired Tidal, things get interesting because he has the funds to actually move the needle in a big way if he wants to. He could acquire Deezer and add ~10 million subscribers immediately , for example.

And someone even mentioned Spotify. That would certainly move the needle !

Or he could scrap it after seeing Apple offer lossless for free (and Amazon copied immediately). That pricing threw a spanner in the works for everyone involved in streaming.
 

Zensō

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Yep sorry i mixed hi-res with CD quality.

What I should have said is, I don't think Spotify and Apple cared about 'lossless' because of Tidal... it was in reaction to Amazon's lossless.

And I don't think Amazon made the first lossless move (among big boys) in reaction to Tidal either... it was to offer something different to Spotify and Apple.

I don't think Tidal had any effect on any of these big moves we are seeing.

But since Jack D acquired Tidal, things get interesting because he has the funds to actually move the needle in a big way if he wants to. He could acquire Deezer and add ~10 million subscribers immediately , for example.

And someone even mentioned Spotify. That would certainly move the needle !

Or he could scrap it after seeing Apple offer lossless for free (and Amazon copied immediately). That pricing threw a spanner in the works for everyone involved in streaming.
New ownership at Tidal has talked about bringing micropayments to Tidal as a way to support artists, which could result in some artists bypassing the major labels altogether. I haven’t seen any details released yet, but it seems to be a move more in the direction of BandCamp than the big streaming services. Whether this ends up being financially viable is anybody’s guess.
 

awdeeoh

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Hi. I don’t know anything about audio engineering but I’m hoping someone can explain this to me.

Tidal uses MQA. Qobuz uses Flac. Couldn’t you just compare the same tracks between the two services and whatever the difference is is what MQA changes about the original? And then you’d know if they only changed things in the audible range or not?

I’m obviously missing something since if it were so simple there wouldn’t be so much hullabaloo, but I’m not sure what.

It is a little complicated.

Different regions uses different mastering of the same title. Even in plain 16/44.1 FLAC.
 
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GoldenOne

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Something I am not clear about regarding having content encoded in MQA (from the OP):

I did also create another 88.2khz track with the amount of ultrasonic content drastically reduced, and no white noise. But MQA removed all of my content from Tidal before this went live and so I was not able to test this.

So the encoding service does not give you the MQA files so that you are able to keep them?
It does not. You can re-download your copy of the file you uploaded, which will be normal flac/wav. But to get the MQA version you have to wait until it goes live on Tidal.
 
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GoldenOne

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Also in regards to my real name. Just to be clear I'm not keeping it 'secret'. MQA knows my real name, when I speak to industry contacts or manufacturers I give them my real name and will often call via video too. I just don't want my name/face/identity broadcast over the internet publicly.

If @amirm , @John Atkinson etc have genuine concerns about me or anything as a result of content being posted under GoldenSound instead of my real name I'm happy to disclose my name to them in private and answer any questions about who I do/do not have connections with just as I have already done so with others.

Privacy =/= secrecy
 

Grooved

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So let me get this straight, you're attacking the guy’s accent saying he seems more credible than he is due to his British accent. Huh? Bob Stuart himself also has a British accent yet you seem to have no problem with that and do not attack his accent.
Your own logic can apply even more to Bob Stuart himself and all the 'just trust us' nonsense he spews about MQA.

In the defense of Amir, it's a bit what we all can do by talking through Internet, but I would have prefer if was thinking and say that its "BBC news" accent is its best quality from what he knows about him ;-)
Now, to be totally fair, and gives a further example, @amirm provided me a link to an Internet discussion (and the Internet word is important) with a mastering engineer where after reading it several times, the main thing I saw was two grown men and very experimented people in different fields (but complementary fields) , not able to fully listen or reading to each other and fighting too much while they are both people who :
- thought that it's an interesting technology even if it's not perfect
- thought it would certainly die by itself
How two experimented people can miss the possibility of even have one post talking out what they share ? Internet world
But we have to try to stay honest and fair as much as possible, and please @amirm, you're the boss here so I hope you can apply that too, even if I understand that it's not always easy ;)

To be clear, I will repeat my position :
- I'm interested by knowing the truth of the encoding/decoding part
- I'm interested by knowing the truth of the rendering part (after decoding)
- I'm interested to find (and it's already done on some points) all the problems in the marketing that is lying to consumers, both (but separated) in MQA marketing and in Tidal marketing (even by extension Qobuz and Deezer marketing as there are MQA files on their services without it being said, and while they say they provide FLAC)

At this moment, I won't say that MQA is better or PCM FLAC is better, and I only compare 24bit MQA with 24bit FLAC, and 16bit MQA with 16bit PCM FLAC or CD.
The differences I hear on some tracks (and again, with listening, it means decoding and rendering, that's why it has to be separate because we could, if possible, render a PCM FLAC through the MQA rendering process and see what it makes). gives more the impression that they sounds different.
 
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