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MQA creator Bob Stuart answers questions.

MRC01

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...
At 44.1 KHz, sampling step is 22.7 microseconds. At 192 KHz, it is 5.2 microseconds. Human hearing system time resolution, as reported by different authors, is within 3-8 microseconds, the average reported value being close to 5 microseconds.
...
That's right. Sample rate does not determine the timing resolution. However, higher sample rates allow wider bandwidth and if you take advantage of that, then the higher frequencies will improving timing.
Your hearing system is not perceiving digital samples one by one. It perceives a continuous waveform post reconstruction filter. In that sense, the sample rate is immaterial.
...
That's true. To understand it intuitively, I wrote a spreadsheet that implements the Whittaker-Shannon formula (theoretically ideal reconstruction) and applied it to some sampled analog waves. This enables me to mess around with samples & waves, and discover that the shape of the constructed analog wave does not change when you shift the sampling points in time.

Put differently, when a sudden transient impulse occurs, intuition might have us imagine that we could get lucky and have a sample happen just at the same time as the impulse. Or we could get unlucky and just miss it, worst case scenario having the sample happen 1/44100 second later. This intuition is wrong. It doesn't matter when the sample happens; in either case, the exact same waveform is constructed.
 
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Blumlein 88

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According to the NIH, meta analysis is the best at eliminating bias and leading to best clinical value. Best to worst, top to bottom.

I plead ignorance and still mistrust the approach. My guess is the value of meta-analysis is very much in the details and care with which it was carried out. That doing so effectively is more iffy than a well conceived well done controlled trial. But that is admittedly without much knowledge in the field.

1559950204662.png
 

SIY

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Note the area of applicability, tracking my observation pretty closely.

No sour grapes, NIH dropped several million into my research.
 

Blumlein 88

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And John Ioannidis who has published on replication problems and other statistical issues (like the need to go beyond 5% significance) has written about some of the problems of meta-analysis.

https://retractionwatch.com/2016/09...ply-flawed-meta-analyses-says-john-ioannidis/

An epidemic of deeply flawed meta-analysis. Dr. Ioannidis believes in the usefulness of meta analysis and systemic review, but they need to be done with care.

NIH article on the subject by Dr. Ioannidis.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27620683
 

mansr

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According to the NIH, meta analysis is the best at eliminating bias and leading to best clinical value. Best to worst, top to bottom.

I plead ignorance and still mistrust the approach. My guess is the value of meta-analysis is very much in the details and care with which it was carried out. That doing so effectively is more iffy than a well conceived well done controlled trial. But that is admittedly without much knowledge in the field.

View attachment 27327
Clearly, we should stop doing actual tests and focus entirely on meta-studies.
 

Cosmik

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...just because we don't understand why we obtained a given result does not mean it's not "science". Quite the opposite, in fact: lots of scientific discoveries were made because someone noticed an odd result that we have no explanation for. (Probably one of the most famous is the anomalous procession of Mercury, among countless others.) In fact, I would even go so far as to say that unexplained results is what keeps science going - confirming existing models is great, but it gets boring fast.

Science is less about "why" than about discovering facts from which we can make predictions. Besides, before you can try to determine what is causing a given outcome, you need to make sure the outcome you're investigating is real and not just a red herring. If we discarded results because we don't know "why" they happen, I'm pretty sure you could throw the entire field of quantum physics out the window, for example.
For sure, your first step can be an accidental observation. But where are you going from there?
4.1 DEFINITION OF HYPOTHESIS
We cannot take a single step forward in any inquiry unless we begin with a suggested explanation or solution of the difficulty which originated it.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325846748_FORMULATING_AND_TESTING_HYPOTHESIS

Why is a hypothesis important for research?
Think about two ways you could conduct research relating to a particular question. You could go out and measure everything you can think of relating to that question, and then sort through and try to make sense of it, or you could formulate a specific hypothesis and carefully design specific measurements to test that hypothesis. There are two problems with the first approach:
  1. It’s likely to be inefficient: you will have to take a lot more measurements before a pattern emerges.
  2. The evidence for whatever relationships you observe will be weak, because instead of making a prediction based on a hypothesis and then testing it, you will be generating hypotheses that fit the observations after the fact. The problem here is that people are very good at coming up with explanations for whatever patterns they see, even if those apparent patterns are in fact completely random
Barbara Robson, Research Scientist (Modelling Aquatic Ecosystems)

It is not good enough for audio science to still be at the stage of saying that humans can hear the difference between high and low res without offering an explanation as to why, several years into the 'problem'. If the only differences between high and low resolution audio are an amount of noise that real science says is most unlikely to be audible, and bandwidth limiting of frequencies that are inaudible, what is the explanation? Experimental error seems most likely, but without homing in on the 'why' we will never be sure. And without knowing the 'why' we can't say whether MQA makes sense or not.

Edit: and of course there is always, as some people were joking in an internet discussion, the "minimal hypothesis": 'something interesting will happen'. I hope we can assume that we all understand that yes, this is technically a hypothesis (before anyone lectures me on that) and that therefore any experiment can technically be called 'science' - but also why it is a joke.
 
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RayDunzl

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I believe you may have it already.

Maybe.

Three illegal impulses 0.2ms apart, the in-room at 48kHz at the listening position, and resampled to 768kHz to reveal a little more about the wave the digits represent:

1559981681921.png


---

Looking at the above, I wondered if I had played it with only one speaker, as the recording looks so good.

Tested and verified both speakers were speaking.
 
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Sergei

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So the cited paper shows the frequency spectra difference of rectangular pulses makes them audible when 10 microseconds apart. When low pass filtered at 21,120 hz the differences were still audible at 10 microseconds apart. As the low pass filter is moved lower the gap has to become greater. No big surprise and doesn't seem to support this temporal idea in MQA. The conclusion of the paper:
In conclusion, the data collected in the present experiment demonstrate, that the auditory system is extremely sensitive to small spectral differences.

I think I figured out a systematic bias in this study (let's call it Study A). The Study A used TDH-39 headphones, which could presumably deliver crisp 10 μs square waves, with rise-fall times of about 2 μs, as it states on page 463.

Fig. 2 on page 463 depicts amplitude spectra as measured. Compare this to the theoretical prediction, as Fig 3 on the same page depicts. For single pulse, the theory predicts ~1 dB attenuation at 12 KHz. As measured (curve Ho = 65), the attenuation is actually ~40 dB, so that output signal already dropped below absolute threshold of hearing.

The author realizes this, noting on page 464: "With reference to the present experiment, we should expect then that experimental manipulations limiting the availability of high-frequency information must adversely affect performance". Nevertheless, he decides to proceed. At the end, he concludes what you cited about the spectral differences.

Let's now look at another study (let's call it study B), published in 2003 by Tatsuya Hirahara from NTT, called "Physical characteristics of headphones used in psychophysical experiments":
https://www.researchgate.net/public...headphones_used_in_psychophysical_experiments.

Couldn't he get that information from manufacturers instead? Well, see for yourself what they usually give:
http://www.schaffrath.net/tdhspecs.pdf

Let's look at how our old friend TDH-39 measures, according to study B. Such headphones are made as identically as possible, for decades, so that experimental studies conducted over the years could be compared. Because of that, the measurements in 2000s are relevant for the 1970s.

Fig. 3 on Page 3: Frequency responses of the TDH-39 on dummy head, IEC coupler, and actual ear. Big differences! They only really come together at 1 KHz. At 100 Hz, IEC coupler and actual ear are equal, but dummy head is down 35 dB. At 10 KHz, they come together again. At 11 KHz, dummy head and IEC coupler are "only" 10 dB apart, yet actual ear is 25 dB down from dummy head.

Fig. 12 on Page 6: Impulse response decay characteristics. TDH-39 is ~7dB down after 500 μs, ~14 dB down after 1,000 μs, ~19 dB down after 1,500 μs, ~23 dB down after 2,000 μs, and so on. It gets down ~40 dB by 3,500 μs. Extrapolating, it might be only ~0.14 dB down after 10 μs. This is a ringy 10KHz-class headphone, rather than a well-damped 100-KHz-class transducer.

Now, it is reasonable to say that doubts about the suitability and precision of an experimental instrument, however serious they are, do not automatically justify discarding the results of an experiment described in Study A. However, this is only reasonable if a person expressing the doubts doesn't offer an alternative interpretation of results. I do:

The one or two pulses transfer momentum (force multiplied by time), not energy, to the TDH-39 diaphragm. The diaphragm doesn't move much during these short interactions, yet changes velocity. The diaphragm starts moving, setting into a pattern of decaying oscillation at its characteristic frequency, which is in audible range. The oscillations do transfer energy to the hearing system through the sound waves, and the hearing system responds to them in the regular way.

Since the momentum transferred linearly depends on the force application time, two 10 μs pulses transfer the same momentum as one 20 μs pulse, assuming that the first out of the two pulses didn't move the diaphragm far enough so that the applied force changed (this effect may explain small separation of the "Ho = 65" curves in Fig. 2). The same transferred momentum results in the same movement of the diaphragm, resulting in the same amplitude spectra, which Fig 2. strongly hints at.

However, the author assumes that energy, not momentum, was transferred by the pulses, and re-scales the results under this assumption. This leads to seemingly meaningful differences. To illustrate: let's take the force as a unit, then the momentum transferred will be either 10+10 or 20, which are same. If however, we assume that energy was transferred by the pulses, it will be 10*10 + 10*10 = 200 in the case of two pulses, and 20*20 = 400 in the case of one.

By assuming that the energy transferred by one pulse is two times larger than it actually is, the author introduces a systematic error of 3 dB. The effect differentiation threshold, stated in Study A as 2 dB, is thus smaller than the systematic error, which makes the conclusion of this particular part of study invalid. Since the rest of the study is based on the same erroneous assumption, the validity of the whole study needs to be reexamined.
 

RayDunzl

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Well.

Impulses are fun to play with.

Assuming the same thing gets played each time...

Record again, and get a different time offset between the playback and recording clocks, and you get different samples from the ADC.

1559983799390.png



Note the upsample creates the same looking wave from the (very) different looking samples. (Upsampling serves as my on-screen visual reconstruction filter for the already band-limited samples)

Monty Montgomery would approve.
 
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solderdude

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Ray, I like your practical approach.
 

RayDunzl

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One last curio to end the evening...

One millisecond of 20kHz sine at a 48kHz sample rate:

1559986076417.png


No way I can hear 20kHz, but I do hear a tick.
 
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edechamps

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No way I can hear 20kHz, but I do hear a tick.

Which makes sense - you're hearing the discontinuities at the beginning and end of your signal, which are basically impulses and contain energy across the spectrum, not just at 20 kHz. If you display the spectrum in Audacity, then you'll see that your file has energy all over the spectrum - but if you restrict the analysis to just some chunk in the middle of the sine wave itself, only the 20 kHz component will remain (assuming perfect windowing).
 

RayDunzl

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you're hearing the discontinuities at the beginning and end of your signal


Sorta forgot about that,

Fade in/out on the 1ms tone, no tick.

1559988609600.png
 
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Costia

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No way I can hear 20kHz, but I do hear a tick.

I think you misunderstand what a tick's frequency spectrum is like.
It's not above 20khz. It contains all frequencies.

The Fourier transform of a constant signal is a spike at freq=0hz.
Fourier transforms work more or less the same both ways.
So the Fourier transform of a spike at t=0 is a constant amplitude across all frequencies.
In other words an tick contains all frequencies equally, including the 20hz-20khz range.
(I interpret a tick here as an infinitely narrow impulse, dirac's delta etc)

So assuming you can only hear up to 20khz (lets say 0-20khz and equally across the frequencies for simplicity).
The fourier transform of what you hear will be the signal multiplied (in freq. domain, its a convolution in time domain) by you ear's freq. response.
In this case its a constant spectrum for the tick, and a square for the ear response.
So you end up with the square.
A square in freq. domain is a sinc (=sin(x)/x) in time domain - not 0.

The point of this is, even if the impulse is infinitely narrow, it still contains quite a bit of energy in the 20h-20khz frequencies that your ear can hear.
But due to the ears response, instead of hearing an impulse, you will hear a sinc.

Edit:
Something that might be counter intuitive to some people: a narrower signal in time domain has a wider bandwidth in freq. domain.
A narrow delta has an infinite spectrum.
An infinite DC signal has only 1 frequency=0.
An infinite sine wave also contains only a single spike on the freq. graph.
It's actually similar to the physic's uncertainty principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform#Uncertainty_principle
 
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Sergei

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Trouble is you are interpreting a study designed to prove a completely different hypothesis to prove your own. It doesn't matter how much time the authors spent on the study or how well peer reviewed it is, it does not prove your point.

A fair counter-argument. The study doesn't directly prove my point, yet it illustrates it.

The point is: sharp transients are not processed by the hearing system of known species living on Earth the way a mix of steady sinusoids is processed. In mammals, the transients spread along the cochlea, starting from its part responsible for recognizing and encoding higher frequencies.

In addition, the experiment has shown that even at the extreme values of the transient amplitude, the basilar membrane still generally behaves like it is known to behave at much lower intensities: it responds with a motion which involves a twisting component. Inner Hair Cells respond to that twisting motion by opening ion channels in their protruding "hairs", which then starts a chain of events resulting in a perception of sound.

The beauty of this experiment, despite it being ruthless to animals, is that it used cochlea structures as a medium for capturing what happens during the transient propagation. This belongs to a class of destructive experiments, using the applied force high enough to cause a partial structure collapse, yet not too high as to result in "erasure of evidence".
 

Costia

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So it would result in aliasing?
Does the animal "hear" it as if it were a lower frequency tone, since it stimulates the same hair cells as a regular sound would?

Edit:
Also since its destructive, or nearly destructive, I am not sure I would call it hearing.
I would assume you would also "see" something if your eyes were being burned by UV.
 
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pkane

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A fair counter-argument. The study doesn't directly prove my point, yet it illustrates it.

The point is: sharp transients are not processed by the hearing system of known species living on Earth the way a mix of steady sinusoids is processed. In mammals, the transients spread along the cochlea, starting from its part responsible for recognizing and encoding higher frequencies.

In addition, the experiment has shown that even at the extreme values of the transient amplitude, the basilar membrane still generally behaves like it is known to behave at much lower intensities: it responds with a motion which involves a twisting component. Inner Hair Cells respond to that twisting motion by opening ion channels in their protruding "hairs", which then starts a chain of events resulting in a perception of sound.

The beauty of this experiment, despite it being ruthless to animals, is that it used cochlea structures as a medium for capturing what happens during the transient propagation. This belongs to a class of destructive experiments, using the applied force high enough to cause a partial structure collapse, yet not too high as to result in "erasure of evidence".

There was no evidence of auditory detection of the pulse, just the physical destruction as the result. Don’t know how you get from this that humans are able to accurately detect very short, non-damaging pulses.
 

PierreV

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There was no evidence of auditory detection of the pulse, just the physical destruction as the result. Don’t know how you get from this that humans are able to accurately detect very short, non-damaging pulses.

I think it is a chain reaction, starting with the supposed benefits of MQA, going through sampling misunderstandings, then ending on a note (if I dare say so) that no rats probably heard (although I guess that could be left for "further investigations").

But that is an enjoyable thread as it remains very polite and generates tons of interesting responses in the rebuttals.
 
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