Moving on from an LP12

[Jas0_0]

Hi all, I hope you’re all well.

It’s a while since I posted on ASR, mainly because ASR cured my GAS and taught me about room correction and I was just able to enjoy my system.

But now I wonder if I could get away with less expensive kit and not notice any difference in SQ.

Before I discovered ASR I bought a Linn LP12. I realise many here might have considered that a bad idea.

It’s an old big red button version with only 33RPM, and a basik lvx arm that I’ve been running with an AT33PTG.

I wondered if I could sell it (keeping the AT if it likes technics arms) and ‘downgrade’ to one of the original mk1 Technics SL1X00 series that appear to be far less expensive on the used market. I was hoping that might be down to less price-inflating brand mystique.

Do you think I’d regret it?

If not, which SL1X00 would you suggest?

Many thanks,

James

 

[JeffS7444]

Before I discovered ASR I bought a Linn LP12. I realise many here might have considered that a bad idea.

I've had three LP12s, two of them equipped with the Ittok LVII arm. Suspect that if they're in reasonably good shape, they'd measure decently (if in doubt, replace the belt). The suspended design can be fiddly, but it does provide good isolation from the environment. If 45 RPM matters to you, there are at least a couple of no-modification ways to get that with an LP12.

I owned a Technics SL1200 Mk II: It's a very good, no-fuss machine with excellent pitch stability. But like other solid-plinth designs, you'll readily hear even light tapping on the plinth, and don't expect the rubber feet to prevent it from picking up subsonic energy from the room. Subjectively, the latter isn't very audible, and can be improved further by choosing a phono preamp which has high pass filtering at 30 Hz or thereabouts. I currently have my phono preamp configured to roll off 35 Hz and below, and this works very well.

Not aware of any really good comparison between the current SL1xxx offerings. More $$ buys a higher level of finish and a whopping increase in mass, but what this means for music listening..?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Since you already own the LP12, I'd stick with it, unless you really need to release cash.

It has almost certainly better acoustic isolation than many alternatives, presuming it is properly set up. If the belt is not worn, once running, wow and flutter are probably inaudibly different from direct drive alternatives.

In terms of "sound", the limitation is in the medium itself. There are people who wouldn't consider direct drive (perhaps due to audible intermodulation effects of the "cogging"). There are people who would not consider belt drive (perhaps due to inconsistent speed and wow). But an LP with an off-centre hole will sound bad on either!

 

[LTig]

I do own an LP12 with Lingo PS, Ekos arm (all ~30 years old) and a new AT33PTG/II. This is a really great sounding package. If there is no really hard need to release cash I'd say keep it.

 

[Mnyb]

Keep it as working museum piece . I got myself an old Thorens for that reason to tinker with and for the odd LP that does not have a good digital counterpart .

It's a kind of a classic the LP12 a piece of history , not all good but it had its day .

 

[sergeauckland]

Over the past almost 60 years being involved with audio, and going back to when playing LPs was the norm for home HiFi, and having had many turntables in my system, (currently use three), I've come to the conclusion that when properly mounted, all decent turntables sound pretty much the same. W&F is inaudible (off centre LPs apart), rumble is inaudible, and bass response 'Good Enough' if the cartridge compliance is correct for the arm mass. With a MM cartridge, capacitative loading makes a significant difference to frequency response, with a MC cartridge, loading is pretty much immaterial once the impedance is some 5-10x the coil resistance.

As others have said above, unless you need to release funds, the Linn is as good as anything else, (perhaps no better in spite of Linn's protestations) so I would keep it.

S.

 

[Thomas_A]

Hi all, I hope you’re all well.

It’s a while since I posted on ASR, mainly because ASR cured my GAS and taught me about room correction and I was just able to enjoy my system.

But now I wonder if I could get away with less expensive kit and not notice any difference in SQ.

Before I discovered ASR I bought a Linn LP12. I realise many here might have considered that a bad idea.

It’s an old big red button version with only 33RPM, and a basik lvx arm that I’ve been running with an AT33PTG.

I wondered if I could sell it (keeping the AT if it likes technics arms) and ‘downgrade’ to one of the original mk1 Technics SL1X00 series that appear to be far less expensive on the used market. I was hoping that might be down to less price-inflating brand mystique.

Do you think I’d regret it?

If not, which SL1X00 would you suggest?

Many thanks,

James

You can just make some checks.
Tonearm: check for sticky bearings (my old Akito is toast and needs new bearings)
Check belt. I think the spec is 280 x 1 x 5 mm. If it is significanly stretched it needs replacement. The Linn belt is expensive for what iti is but it is better than other non-Linn belts I have tried.
Check oil in the bearing

If all ok just keep it.

 

[markstein]

Hi all, I hope you’re all well.

It’s a while since I posted on ASR, mainly because ASR cured my GAS and taught me about room correction and I was just able to enjoy my system.

But now I wonder if I could get away with less expensive kit and not notice any difference in SQ.

Before I discovered ASR I bought a Linn LP12. I realise many here might have considered that a bad idea.

It’s an old big red button version with only 33RPM, and a basik lvx arm that I’ve been running with an AT33PTG.

I wondered if I could sell it (keeping the AT if it likes technics arms) and ‘downgrade’ to one of the original mk1 Technics SL1X00 series that appear to be far less expensive on the used market. I was hoping that might be down to less price-inflating brand mystique.

Do you think I’d regret it?

If not, which SL1X00 would you suggest?

Many thanks,

James

Hi,

I have a Technics SL1210GR with stock arm and AT33PTG/II (see my signature) and like it a lot. Cannot compare to the Linn setup however.

 

[DSJR]

Hi all, I hope you’re all well.

It’s a while since I posted on ASR, mainly because ASR cured my GAS and taught me about room correction and I was just able to enjoy my system.

But now I wonder if I could get away with less expensive kit and not notice any difference in SQ.

Before I discovered ASR I bought a Linn LP12. I realise many here might have considered that a bad idea.

It’s an old big red button version with only 33RPM, and a basik lvx arm that I’ve been running with an AT33PTG.

I wondered if I could sell it (keeping the AT if it likes technics arms) and ‘downgrade’ to one of the original mk1 Technics SL1X00 series that appear to be far less expensive on the used market. I was hoping that might be down to less price-inflating brand mystique.

Do you think I’d regret it?

If not, which SL1X00 would you suggest?

Many thanks,

James

The LVX at this forty year old stage, won't be ideal for an MC cartridge, due to the joint between headshell socket and arm-tube not being that strong (and the headshell bolt always overtightened by numpties in years gone by. Also, the rubbery counterweight decoupler can turn to goo, said counterweight then spinning freely on its stub which isn't good for this arm sonically. The Basik Plus arm aimed to sort the hheadshell issue and my own example is okay, if a little bright toned and still a touch scrappy toned compared to its peers such as the Rega RB300/330 series, the latter which basically shows cheaper cartridges for the compromised mess they actually are (flat-earthers always blamed the arm for this, but I have enough experience with these to feel otherwise now).

An old LP12 can be fine with a low mass arm fitted, lacking the added 'bloom' the Ittok and similar high mass arms gave the 'LP12 sound' in the 80s to early 90s. Updates are plentiful but a faff for those not versed in the art of sorting often wayward suspensions (no two LP12s before 1990 or so were quite the same) and costs soon hugely escalate out of control if new parts are considered. EVERYTHING that makes up an LP12 has been changed to some degree or another now since the mid 70s samples, despite the visual aspect looking all but identical (groovy plinths and lids aside).

*The state of the main bearing at fifty years old may be questionable too!*

My advice *today* would be to sell the deck and arm minus cartridge - let someone else have the headaches. A simple Technics SL1500C or even 100C would be great if used with lid removed and, carefully sited, should give a highly neutral and faithful sonic performance, just as their fifty year old ancestors do if properly set up! I'm a bit suspicious still of the more exalted Technics decks as a genuine sonic improvement, as I suspect profit making from audiophile circles plays a huge part here with a bit of FUD thrown in the pot as well to encourage more money spent.

Outside of the UK, prices are high, but I do have a sneaky respect for the Rega Planar 6, as the arm is basically better than detachable head alternatives and the drive with EBLT and Neo supply, allows good W&F figures and precise pitch adjustment denied on lower models (the 3RS has a Neo too). The often hidden engineering is to a top standard as well, but taken for granted as it's invisible (eye-fi again plays a part here).

 

[Subwaffler]

But an LP with an off-centre hole will sound bad on either!

Not if the direct drive in question is one of those Nakamichis that can correct for this!

 

[Elkerton]

I own an Ariston RD11, a precursor of the LP12. I also own a Technics SL1000. While I have always loved the plumy sound of the RD11, it is finicky, like the LP12. The Technics is bullet proof, or so it seems, and infinitely easier to use.

But I chime with the others here: I wouldn't change for change's sake.

That said, the real test for a turntable is its isolation. The LP12 is subject to footfalls and little else (the floating suspension swings in sympathy). The Technics can offer good isolation, but the test is to place the stylus on a stationary record and turn up the volume slowly. If feedback occurs, turn the volume down quickly. In my own case, the Technics needs more isolation, which I provided with a partially filled bicycle inner tube, a board on top, and the Technics on top of that- feedback gone.

 

[Jas0_0]

Thanks everyone. It seems the pendulum is swinging to stick, not twist. Which is probably sensible as the hassle and risk of buying and selling probably isn’t worth the small amount i’d end up saving.

So the next question is cartridges. My AT33ptg/II stylus is worn.

I could trade in at AT for a discounted replacement (though I see a lot of their carts are out of stock).

Though I’m not wedded to MC or AT (and I appreciate I’m pushing my LVX arm’s abilities with MC though I never had any problems).

Are there any cheaper MM line/fineline/microlinear/shibata alternatives that would give me similar audible performance?

 

[DSJR]

May I just add that feedback can ruin vinyl reproduction LONG before the howl-round occurs - first hand experience here.

 

[DSJR]

Thanks everyone. It seems the pendulum is swinging to stick, not twist. Which is probably sensible as the hassle and risk of buying and selling probably isn’t worth the small amount i’d end up saving.

So the next question is cartridges. My AT33ptg/II stylus is worn.

I could trade in at AT for a discounted replacement (though I see a lot of their carts are out of stock).

Though I’m not wedded to MC or AT (and I appreciate I’m pushing my LVX arm’s abilities with MC though I never had any problems).

Are there any cheaper MM line/fineline/microlinear/shibata alternatives that would give me similar audible performance?

I'm a firm devotee of the hierarchy ideal where *vinyl* is concerned, as if you lose quality at the source end, you can never get it back. In your case, the LP12 is an early one and it really depends on the bearing-wear first as to how to proceed. My 1976 LP12 had wear after five years, although I've seen one or two others from this period in absolutely perfect condition (a little polished running mark on the spindle tip is okay as long as it's tiny and 'polished' looking. Mine had the rounded tip almost flattened and some mid 80s examples look almost burned black due to variable hardening of the thrust plate in the bearing well. 'Velocite 6' oil is apparently the preferred lubricant on these early bearings, not the later black oil I gather (I'm so away from Linn these days).

The LVX really isn't up to it in my opinion for reasons explained above and the Basik Plus barely so as long as the counterweight has some grip on its threaded stub.

Many modern pickups are toppy-peaky these days, in an attempt to try to keep the presence region as neutral as possible. The PTG really isn't what I'd call a good match to such an arm, but maybe the solid body helps here? Maybe one of the new Sumiko MMs could be useful?

AT seem to have consolidated their popular MC range on the OC9 platform, offering a selection of stylus options on what looks to be the same body and internals.

if you'd consider an MM type, the AT VM740 may be a good match as it's not as 'obvious' in tone as the mechanically identical? VM540 which I believe carries on at reduced price. I'd argue that it's not worth going over this as the arm arguably wouldn't allow any small difference to be heard and lord knows the state of the deck/tightness of parts etc.

 

[JeffS7444]

If money is an issue with the LP12 and you can return it for full refund, that's certainly an option. I missed your comment about money and had assumed this was something you had gotten at a bargain price. If you paid significantly more than the cost of a decent SL1200 Mk II, that changes the equation some.

Last time I checked, I was frustrated at the state of (non-) reviews comparing the current Technics offerings under something resembling controlled conditions! I'd see comments about how the entry-level models seemed "cheap", but the comments were maddeningly lacking in specifics, much less ABX comparisons. But whether there are actual sonic differences between the $5K USD SL12x0G and even the entry-level models..? More money will get you more niceties, like a heftier platter, more dampening, and parts that don't sound hollow and plastic when tapped. And while these factors can influence your perception of quality, will they make an audible difference you could reliably discern in a proper ABX comparison? That's not so clear to me. A number of years ago, I found a shop still using a 1970s Technics SL-D1 at their listening station: That was the first turntable I ever owned, and it was their entry-level direct drive model. Over the years, I convinced myself that I needed something fancier, so Technics > Luxman (crap) > Rega > Linn > Oracle > Linn > Sota > Linn. Felt like I was living the dream! But re-encountering the SL-D1 years later, it was exactly as hollow and plastic as I had recalled, but as long as you removed the dust cover when playing, and didn't tap on the plinth, I felt that the sonics were just fine. If not for my youthful ego and yearning for a more upscale experience, I might've just stayed with SL-D1 until the CD era arrived, but I guess I needed to get stuff out of my system. And thank goodness I was fussing with audio and not automobiles or automatic wristwatches.

 

[Thomas_A]

Thanks everyone. It seems the pendulum is swinging to stick, not twist. Which is probably sensible as the hassle and risk of buying and selling probably isn’t worth the small amount i’d end up saving.

So the next question is cartridges. My AT33ptg/II stylus is worn.

I could trade in at AT for a discounted replacement (though I see a lot of their carts are out of stock).

Though I’m not wedded to MC or AT (and I appreciate I’m pushing my LVX arm’s abilities with MC though I never had any problems).

Are there any cheaper MM line/fineline/microlinear/shibata alternatives that would give me similar audible performance?

Cartridge ATVM745xML. If you have option to load it at 140-150 pF and 30-35 kOhm you have a high class linear frequency response.

 

[1066]

Hi all, I hope you’re all well.

It’s a while since I posted on ASR, mainly because ASR cured my GAS and taught me about room correction and I was just able to enjoy my system.

But now I wonder if I could get away with less expensive kit and not notice any difference in SQ.

Before I discovered ASR I bought a Linn LP12. I realise many here might have considered that a bad idea.

It’s an old big red button version with only 33RPM, and a basik lvx arm that I’ve been running with an AT33PTG.

I wondered if I could sell it (keeping the AT if it likes technics arms) and ‘downgrade’ to one of the original mk1 Technics SL1X00 series that appear to be far less expensive on the used market. I was hoping that might be down to less price-inflating brand mystique.

Do you think I’d regret it?

If not, which SL1X00 would you suggest?

Many thanks,

James

I really had no good experiences with basik lvx arm. The bearings get play. It’s delicate.

Try and find an ittok.

 

[Jas0_0]

Thanks for your replies. One more question, if I may. Does anyone know of a schematic for a phantom powered op amp buffer to go between the MM cartridge and the mic pres on my Fireface 400 so I can continue to do digital RIAA and DRC?

 

[LTig]

Does anyone know of a schematic for a phantom powered op amp buffer to go between the MM cartridge and the mic pres on my Fireface 400 so I can continue to do digital RIAA and DRC?

You could use input 3+4 in instrument mode (470 kOhm input impedance) with 18 dB analog gain. Just connect a resisistor in parallel to each input to get the desired input impedance. With 24 bits at hand you won't miss anything by applying a bit of digital gain.

 

[Jas0_0]

You could use input 3+4 in instrument mode (470 kOhm input impedance) with 18 dB analog gain. Just connect a resisistor in parallel to each input to get the desired input impedance. With 24 bits at hand you won't miss anything by applying a bit of digital gain.

Thanks good idea. Would I also need to address capacitance? I can’t find a Fireface 400 input capacitance figure