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Movie directors with a sonic signature

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jsilvela

jsilvela

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No problem. I am doing films, not consuming them.
Doing a "good" film always means to analyze, no matter the genre.
One forming occasion - already 25 years ago - was working with a director who started as a critic and film scholar.
After a week of editing, she took the rough cut home and changed sides:
Her "scholar" - self analyzed what her "director-self" liked.
Very often, the "taste" did not stand the analysis and we reworked the scene.



Of course you sat with Terrence Malick in the editing room and did talk with the actors "who got crazy".
It is just the perpetuated rubbish from film journalists.
I´d rather stick to articles like this:
meh.
Let's move on.
 

RayDunzl

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thecheapseats

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... Music is not everything. Walter Murch always shows a scene from the Godfather to film students, when Michael Corleone does his first murder. No suspense musicc at all, just the screeching of the subway. But in the moment when he drops his gun, the music works almost as a relief, watch after 6:40...
What a wonderful excerpt you've cited - Murch speaking about that compelling Godfather scene - I'd never seen that interview. It's a very personal recollection for me, not just as a film lover - but the sound editor that constructed that music-less scene was my actual godfather in real life - he was always very proud of that scene.

Both my father and Howard Beals (the sound editor) were best friends growing up in L.A and got jobs in their mid- twenties at Paramount. Howard was in the sound department and my father played in Paramount's film scoring orchestra (when studios still staffed their own orchestras - all gone now, of course).

Film productions were a part of both our families lives growing up and still are on my side, as I'm a second generation L.A. studio musician (and still working). Thanks for posting that great interview which caught my attention while reading your comment's description of it - I immediately knew what you were talking about - such a compelling moment of film making... again, Thanks Herbert....
 
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Herbert

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What a wonderful excerpt you've cited - Murch speaking about that compelling Godfather scene - I'd never seen that interview. It's a very personal recollection for me, not just as a film lover - but the sound editor that constructed that music-less scene was my actual godfather in real life - he was always very proud of that scene.

Both my father and Howard Beals (the sound editor) were best friends growing up in L.A and got jobs in their mid- twenties at Paramount. Howard was in the sound department and my father played in Paramount's film scoring orchestra (when studios still staffed their own orchestras - all gone now, of course).

Film productions were a part of both our families lives growing up and still are on my side, as I'm a second generation L.A. studio musician (and still working). Thanks for posting that great interview which caught my attention while reading your comment's description of it - I immediately knew what you were talking about - such a compelling moment of film making... again, Thanks Herbert....
I have very fond memories when I commuted between Berlin and L.A., from 1998 to 2000 while doing editing work there,
working in the Westchester and later Santa Monica areas.
I hope to get back to L.A. in 2024 for a documentary film.
I still listen to KCRW online, especially LeRoy Downs "Just Jazz".
There is another great example -going completely in another direction- how masterfully Murch used sound, but unfortunately there is no clip online:
The Russian Invasion Scene in the "Unbeareable Lightness of Being". The day the Warsaw Pact invaded, the head of FAMU handed out 16mm cameras to the students
to document the invasion and smuggle the films out of Czechoslowakia. So Murch´s editing team researched the reels that were scattered all over Western Europe
to use it in the scene, intercut with shots of the actors. So the sound decision was to use the flashes when the cameras speed up during cuts in connection
with the typical "bluip"- sound when a Nagra speeds up. The original material was MOS, soundless. And of course both, camera and sound, never speed up in sync.
And even though most people of the audience do not recognize the sound, the accept the "realism" of it.
 
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thecheapseats

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with the typical "bluip"- sound when a Nagra speeds up. The original material was MOS, soundless. And of course both, camera and sound, never speed up in sync.
And even though most people of the audience do not recognize the sound, the accept the "realism" of it.
ha! - I think I know that nagra sound you speak of... it is distinct... I'll check "Lightness.." and listen for it... thx...
 
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jsilvela

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A lovely arrangement inspired by Nino Rota's score for Fellini's "8 1/2", in an excellent recording from The Carla Bley Band.


That was great, thanks.
Nino Rota was a great.

"8 1/2", Fellini also does magic simply with the dialog. Most of the movie the dialog is chaotic, frantic. Then towards the end, Mastroianni has a monologue. Completely alters the pace of the movie. It's startling, and part of what makes that movie.
Fellini pulled the same trick in *La dolce vita* ... gets me every time.
 
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jsilvela

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Risky Business (1983)
Paul Brickman has only made two movies, both great, both with great music and dialog (sometimes monologue).

Risky Business just popped into my mind today when my music streaming site started playing Tangerine Dream.
It's just such a cool movie, in the best sense of "cool". And it may be one of a small handful of teenager movies that are truly good.

So, this clip is safe-for-work, with the Tangerine Dream background.


In youtube you can search for "Tangerine Dream - Love on a Real Train (1983)" too,
and you'll get the NSFW train ride scene.
 

robwpdx

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You can work director down or composer up. I hope I'm on topic discussing composer up. IMDB in full cast and crew documents the sound roles. You can click on the sound persons and find their other work.

Another source for discovery is looking at the Oscars and other reputable movie award nominees over the years for sound categories.

It brings a smile to my face so many ASR posts have mentioned Walter Murch. He has a book and many interviews on video which can be easily found.

There is a lesser role for music supervisors who bring pre-existing recordings, often pop, but sometimes symphonic, into the score. Music supervisors also find recordings for advertising which usually do not have the budget for original composition and recording. Many friends have been music supervisors.

Our local classical music stream has a program which looks at composers who contribute to the director, rather than which directors hire who.

https://www.thescore.org/

It is well worth streaming.

There are also many video interviews with Hans Zimmer, and probably other sound designers and film composers.

I'm sure it has been mentioned -

Making Waves -

a documentary on sound design and

RIP: A remix manifesto -

which discusses sampling and the hard block of samples in movie releasing.

I am a fan of the movie Until the End of the World (1991) by Wim Wenders.


It used a lot of pop - essentially much of it is a movie video. I love his use of Pigmy field recordings in Central Africa. Wenders is also famous for his documentary Buena Vista Social Club. So I would call his music choices authentic to the movie, rather than a sound across movies. But the release of Until the End of the World, streaming, and DVDs, is severely limited because of the need to license the music in every country.

The other modern approach is editing picture to the soundtrack, rather than composing soundtrack to picture. My favorite example is Dogtown and the ZBoys (2002). You have to see it, the trailer is an edit of an edit, not to sound sync picture edit.

The picture and the music comes together with the editor. The director approves the music and approves the edit.

I really enjoy the Japanese style of cinematic composition. An example is Avalon (2001) and the director Mamoru Oshii's many other works.
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0651900/?ref_=tt_ov_dr So I guess I am firmly back on topic!
 

Herbert

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The other modern approach is editing picture to the soundtrack, rather than composing soundtrack to picture. My favorite example is Dogtown and the ZBoys (2002). You have to see it, the trailer is an edit of an edit, not to sound sync picture edit.
There is nothing modern about it - it is a documentary. The bill for the music rights must have been huge, we´re talking about $5000 per minute just for the cinema release. In my own documentary I planned to use four seconds of a famous song. The composer wanted to give it to me for free, but did not own the rights. The record company wanted $700 for those four seconds, limited cinema release in Germany only. When I asked them, why so much they told me: "Well, there is three law firms involved". So the song ended on "floor of the editing room". During postproduction of Apocalypse Now, Coppola was forced to search for another version of the Ride of the Valkiries because the Solti recording was too expensive. He finally got the phone number of Solti and called him - and got it almost for free. Editing to music is daily bread and butter, also in Features Films temp tracks are used before the composer comes in and starts his work. The best Example for temp tracks is 2001 - Kubrick kept them as Alex North could not cope with Strauss, Ligety, Chatchaturian. Again, the music rights are way more expensive tha to hire a composer and have the score recorded with a large Symphony Orchestra.
 
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jsilvela

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John Ford was another director with a gift for sound.
And for apt musical scenes.

This song from Rio Grande is ... well enjoy it

 

Herbert

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Are you kidding? Where is the specialty? As "The Sons of the Pioneers" were famous,
he used them in three of his movies, so?
Nothing profound here. No subtext, nothing.

So: Here comes a musical scene without music:
With some "error" in sound design: When Jack Elam pulls the wires off the telegraph,
the annoying squeaking of the windmill stops. And comes back when the fly annoys him.
To make room for the subtle sounds happening in between. So complete suspense - without any music.
"Once upon a Time in the West" became also famous because of Ennio Morricones score.
But starts with none.

Now something only the Indian film industry was and is capable of:
Mixing hard boiled Film Noir with Musical:
Baazi 1951:
CID 1956:
 
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jsilvela

jsilvela

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Are you kidding? Where is the specialty? As "The Sons of the Pioneers" were famous,
he used them in three of his movies, so?
Nothing profound here. No subtext, nothing.
what happened to you, man?
Your experience does not give the power to decide what other people may or may not find meaningful.
 

Herbert

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And what gives you the sincerity to believe to be on equal footing with me?
Can you explain what gives this scene a sonic signature?
Why an Irish rebel song, written in 1916, was miraculously transferred into an 1879 timeframe?
 
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jsilvela

jsilvela

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And what gives you the sincerity to believe to be on equal footing with me?
You're a prince among men.
And since you're trying to impugn me out of this thread I created, I wonder why you don't just open another where you don't need to suffer fools.
 

Herbert

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Looks like you are not able or willing to substantiate your views - as you yourself noted, as the originator of this thread.
Also, it is inappropriate to call me a prince here.
Obviously it doesn't occur to you that this is about reflection and analysis.
Something to ponder:
Your example is one of those usual John Ford westerns, shot at the time of Hollywood's Blacklist,
where the Indians are the bad guys. And the cavalry are the good guys.
Only, unfortunately, in history it was the other way around.
The answer to this mendacity was the Italo westerns or American late westerns
like Little Big Man, Soldier Blue or Jeremiah Johnson.
And with the evil Indians operating out of Mexico:
The ideology propagated in Rio Grande, to briefly carry out a military operation
in a neighbouring country in secret for the good cause,
sounds strangely familiar even today, doesn't it?

When John Ford made "Chayenne Autumn" in 1964 as a redemption
to the American Natives, he again didn't bother with accuracies.
Since the film was shot in Utah and there were no Chayenne on location, Navajos were used.
To make it sound "authentic", they simply had to speak the English dialogue in Navajo.
Whether it's Chayenne or Navajo, no one in the target audience would hear it anyway.
But there were no translators on the set. So the Navajo actors sprinkled little innuendos
into the dialogue about body parts reserved for men.
The Navajo audience is said to have slid off their seats laughing.
Unintentional sonic signature.
 

Axo1989

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Looks like you are not able or willing to substantiate your views - as you yourself noted, as the originator of this thread.
Also, it is inappropriate to call me a prince here.
Obviously it doesn't occur to you that this is about reflection and analysis.
Something to ponder:
Your example is one of those usual John Ford westerns, shot at the time of Hollywood's Blacklist,
where the Indians are the bad guys. And the cavalry are the good guys.
Only, unfortunately, in history it was the other way around.
The answer to this mendacity was the Italo westerns or American late westerns
like Little Big Man, Soldier Blue or Jeremiah Johnson.
And with the evil Indians operating out of Mexico:
The ideology propagated in Rio Grande, to briefly carry out a military operation
in a neighbouring country in secret for the good cause,
sounds strangely familiar even today, doesn't it?

When John Ford made "Chayenne Autumn" in 1964 as a redemption
to the American Natives, he again didn't bother with accuracies.
Since the film was shot in Utah and there were no Chayenne on location, Navajos were used.
To make it sound "authentic", they simply had to speak the English dialogue in Navajo.
Whether it's Chayenne or Navajo, no one in the target audience would hear it anyway.
But there were no translators on the set. So the Navajo actors sprinkled little innuendos
into the dialogue about body parts reserved for men.
The Navajo audience is said to have slid off their seats laughing.
Unintentional sonic signature.

Those line breaks are too much for me. Are you aiming for poetry?
 
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jsilvela

jsilvela

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Also, it is inappropriate to call me a prince here.
Oh boy hahaha :facepalm:

What a sad way to use your experience as a filmmaker.
Here you are, laying down the law that Ford was mendacious and Hamaguchi is empty.

You do understand, no matter your experience, no matter how long your messages, other people can find Hamaguchi meaningful or Ford true.
I can see this upsets you, but don’t make a scene will you?

This is supposed to be enjoyable, so if someone likes filmmaker XYZ you have no call to denigrate them.
 

Herbert

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I have asked you several times if you can justify your views.
But you mock me.
Here's a little John Ford tutoring for you,
which is also interesting for you as a Spaniard:
 
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jsilvela

jsilvela

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I have asked you several times if you can justify your views.
But you mock me.
Here's a little John Ford tutoring for you,
which is also interesting for you as a Spaniard:

You seem to be confused. At ASR, people making science claims about subwoofers, cables, vinyl or such, can and will be asked to provide backing and evidence.

I don’t need to “substantiate” my film tastes. Not to you, not to anyone. Don’t waste your efforts on someone who is not interested in them.

As to what may interest me “as a Spaniard”… what a condescending and foolish statement.

Get off your pedestal.
 
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