MOTU UltraLite-mk5 Review (Audio Interface)

[Sieniek]

Yes, it has 10 channels of analog output as well as ADAT/TOSLINK and SPDIF outputs. If you really wanted to 18 channels of output would be relatively easy to do if you added another ADAT DAC.

I can't speak to Dirac live on Windows but assuming it can be integrated with software DSP for your active 3 way (EKIO? Equalizer APO? I really don't know anything about these and how they integrate with Dirac on Windows) it seems it would work well. Maybe others with more experience in this area can help.

Michael

Another ADAT dac can be another MOTU MK5 Ultralite ? Sorry for noob question.

I have two subwoofers so with 10 channels available I would be able to connect only one subwoofer OR is there an option to connect two of them under one channel both playing in mono ? Under 40hz it probably doesn't matter anyway right ?

And last question if you don't mind, is MOTU MK5 have internal DSP where I can set the crossovers, etc between the channels (three way front stereo speakers) ?
Or do I need to sort it out with some external DSP on windows ?

Thank you Michael for your help.

Still waiting for my unit to arrive and cannot wait to try it.

Raf

 

[mdsimon2]

Another ADAT dac can be another MOTU MK5 Ultralite ? Sorry for noob question.

Yes, it could be another Ultralite Mk5 (or something cheaper for surrounds / subwoofers).

I have two subwoofers so with 10 channels available I would be able to connect only one subwoofer OR is there an option to connect two of them under one channel both playing in mono ? Under 40hz it probably doesn't matter anyway right ?

If you only need one extra output you can also add a SPDIF optical or coaxial DAC to the Mk5. The advantage of having each sub on a separate channel would be ability to implement different delays / EQ for each.

And last question if you don't mind, is MOTU MK5 have internal DSP where I can set the crossovers, etc between the channels (three way front stereo speakers) ?
Or do I need to sort it out with some external DSP on windows ?

No, it does not have a capable enough DSP to implement crossovers. You will need DSP software.

Michael

 

[Sieniek]

Yes, it could be another Ultralite Mk5 (or something cheaper for surrounds / subwoofers).



If you only need one extra output you can also add a SPDIF optical or coaxial DAC to the Mk5. The advantage of having each sub on a separate channel would be ability to implement different delays / EQ for each.



No, it does not have a capable enough DSP to implement crossovers. You will need DSP software.

Michael

Thank you Michael for the info, it makes my mind clearer with everything so once it will arrive it will be much easier for me to start and apply everything properly so I really appreciate it.

On the thread of Topping DM7 I have seen like someone wrote this "The lack of SPDIF input makes it a half assed product. IMO the ability to take SPDIF in, send to PC for processing over USB, and back out to DAC via USB is a must have feature in such a device. Okto got it right." - it interested me straight away because from what I understand it means that with Okto Dac8 you can play your sound coming from PS5 to your TV by hdmi then by spdif from TV to AES/EBU, sending the signal to laptop, using Dirac live, crossovers and a software which would let to set all the channels as 5.1 audio system and come back with the signal to Okto to play the corrected sound through speakers. Can it be done with Motu MK5 also ?

Because if yes this is exactly what I would happily do as it would be a game changer for me.

Currently I have Minidsp SHD and this is why I like it - it can play with Dirac Live correction from any source.

Thanks,

Raf

 

[mdsimon2]

it interested me straight away because from what I understand it means that with Okto Dac8 you can play your sound coming from PS5 to your TV by hdmi then by spdif from TV to AES/EBU, sending the signal to laptop, using Dirac live, crossovers and a software which would let to set all the channels as 5.1 audio system and come back with the signal to Okto to play the corrected sound through speakers. Can it be done with Motu MK5 also ?

For the Okto there is a missing piece in that setup, you need 4 stereo AES outputs. An optical output from a TV will either be stereo or compressed Dolby 5.1. Stereo can easily be converted to AES for input in to the Okto (but obviously won't be 5.1). For Dolby 5.1 you need a Dolby multichannel decoder like the DP562 or DP564, which fortunately are very cheap these days.

If you have a HDMI 5.1 or 7.1 LPCM source you can convert to 4x AES with a Meridian HD621 or Audiopraise VanityPro which will give you the highest quality multichannel input for the Okto but will also be much more expensive.

And yes, once you have AES to the Okto in AES / USB mode you can then apply DSP in a computer and have the processed signal routed to the Okto analog outputs.

The Ultralite Mk5 has similar capabilities but obviously different inputs. It does have a SPDIF input (stereo) which is great for stereo active speakers, you can send a 2 channel source and then apply DSP on a computer to split in to say a 4 way active speaker + sub and route the processed signal to the analog or digital outputs. Unfortunately the only ways to get a multichannel digital signal in to the Ultralite are via ADAT (I know of no HDMI to ADAT or Dolby 5.1 to ADAT devices, maybe they exist?) or USB.

If I was doing an Ultralite Mk5 based 5.1 or 7.1 setup that did not start with a computer as a source I would purchase a miniDSP U-DIO8 and one of the devices mentioned above (DP562/564, HD621, VanityPro depending on source). As above you split your 5.1 or 7.1 source to 4 x AES or SPDIF outputs, but in this case use the U-DIO8 to send those outputs to a computer, use a computer to apply DSP and route to your desired output channels on the Ultralite Mk5.

These are very complicated setups. Probably worth taking a step back and think through exactly what you want to do and what it takes to achieve it.

Michael

 

[Sieniek]

Yes I must agree that it all sounds very complicated and before I would even do anything I need to learn most of it first.

I've thought it can be done much easier.

For now I will use it mostly with a laptop as a main source for everything.

But what I am curious about as well is how I can get the sound and if it's possible at all coming from my ps5 or any other source connected to my tv.
PS5 hdmi to tv, tv spdif to Motu and then as or if I understood correctly I am not able to set my crossovers in my front stereo three way active speakers and I am not able to play the sound in 5.1 in such a setup.
So what sound I can get from such a configuration if any at all ?

If only there would be an AV receiver with them all and great performance, one can dream.
One day if there will be any that will solve all the problems hopefully.

Thanks,

Raf

PS. I'm sorry Michael I've checked once again and you've explained this to me already here "I think the PS5 has USB output but I have no first hand experience with it. Otherwise if it does LPCM over HDMI you would need the U-DIO8 + HD621 solution mentioned above."

 

[dlundqvist]

A bit of a computer question. Has anyone tried to see what communication protocol CueMix uses to send / receive data with the Ultralite Mk5?

CueMix 5 uses WebSockets over HTTP. It uses binary frames, which makes it a tad harder to understand it.

I see this happening through a network interface, but I can't use WireShark to parse it.

You must let Wireshark capture when CueMix connects to the device, otherwise it won't understand that the HTTP connection has been upgraded to WebSockets.

I'm trying to figure out if it is possible to identify the package to adjust the volume in order to control it remotely, for example from a smartphone.

My main platform is Linux. There it works, from I can see, perfectly fine. My limited testing has not shown any issues. I do aim to write a tool that can configure the main mixer settings, such as changing volume, mute, solo etc. both for the mixes and sources within the mixes. I'm replacing an analog mixer, so I need to have some kind of mixer controls.

I've started to decode the binary protocol. It's very structured, so the big ticket items should be possible. I get the feeling that the routing matrix is still there, just hidden behind CueMix 5. My impression, without knowing more of the mk5 or the other devices with routing matrix, is that the stereo mixes are implemented using aux busses with pre-defined input and output routing. I might be totally wrong about this though, future will tell what we can find out.

With that said, I don't know when I have something working though. Quite busy at the moment, but since I need it myself the incentive is definitely there.

 

[carat]

I recently noticed on my Mk5 playing a 60 hz tone that by adjusting the volume of the analog outputs via the knob I can hear a low frequency "pop" at each step (this is not perceptible with music or higher frequency tones).
The knob should be a digital encoder so it seems strange to me that it interferes with the analog circuit of the board. However, it seems equally strange to me that it is a digital artifact since the same does not happen from CueMix.
Does yours also behave like this?

I don't have the mk5 (yet) but I have heard this on other devices with digital volume controls, such as a Pioneer AVR. I remember noticing the faint pop-pop-pop as it moved through the volume steps.

 

[TriN]

If you are on Mac, the source for CM5 is available in the app's package. I haven't tried on my PC yet.
Modifying the code and then reloading the app magically works.
The DSP is a LOT MORE capable than what CM5 gives you.

I'm trying to add a low pass filter,
Do you guys know the math for coefs a0 a1 a2 b0 b1? this is new to me, looks like it's possible to change the filter order too.

This is how they do the high pass:

CalculateCoeff() {
var norm;
var V = Math.pow(10, Math.abs(this.gain) / 20);
var K = Math.tan(Math.PI * this.fc / this.fs);
var Q = this.Q;
const kQ = Math.SQRT2/2;
switch(this.eqtype)
{
case 'highPass':
norm = 1 / (1 + K / kQ + K * K);
this.coeff.a0 = 1 * norm;
this.coeff.a1 = -2 * this.coeff.a0;
this.coeff.a2 = this.coeff.a0;
this.coeff.b1 = 2 * (K * K - 1) * norm;
this.coeff.b2 = (1 - K / kQ + K * K) * norm;

UPDATE:
It looks like the coeffs are for the Plotter, filters could be hardcoded somewhere else

 

[TriN]

It is a lot easier to use the index.html file
To connect to the device, thru ifconfig, looks for the new 169.x.x.x ip, then on the page, enter <IP>:1281

here are some logs I activated:

datastore.js:561 DS Set koEQBW, i: 0, v 1
datastore.js:561 DS Set koEQFreq, i: 0, v 122
datastore.js:561 DS Set koEQGain, i: 0, v -9.6
datastore.js:561 DS Set koEQBW, i: 0, v 1
datastore.js:561 DS Set koEQFreq, i: 0, v 123
datastore.js:561 DS Set koEQGain, i: 0, v -9.6
datastore.js:561 DS Set koEQBW, i: 0, v 1
datastore.js:561 DS Set koEQMode, i: 0, v 0

So it is confirmed that the equalizer/filter is just a number (koEQMode)

//4 state int - highPass = 3, highShelf = 2, lowShelf = 1, peak = 0

I'll try other modes, I really need a low pass!

 

[madmalkav]

Thanks @dlundqvist and @TriN for looking into this, I was thinking in buying and interface but now I think I will wait to see the results of your investigation, as a getting an interface like this with proper controls in Linux sounds incredibly great. Is there any github or similar I can follow the progress? Is there any way I can contribute without having the card? Lastly, is there any chance this will be also useful for other MOTU devices?

 

[TriN]

Thanks @dlundqvist and @TriN for looking into this, I was thinking in buying and interface but now I think I will wait to see the results of your investigation, as a getting an interface like this with proper controls in Linux sounds incredibly great. Is there any github or similar I can follow the progress? Is there any way I can contribute without having the card? Lastly, is there any chance this will be also useful for other MOTU devices?

So far it looks like controlling the device is possible thru websocket, the source will give you the functions to send commands.
But... adding a low pass filter sounds impossible, filters are hardcoded in the firmware.

The type of filter is a number, the gain/freq/q is updated thru commands, no way to customize it.

Logs for the volume:
DS Set kMainTrim, i: 0, v 70.4
DS Set kMainTrim, i: 0, v 69.8
DS Set kMainTrim, i: 0, v 69.6

value is NEGATIVE
v=10 is equal to -10 dB

 

[madmalkav]

I'm more interested on the control part, but I wish you good luck with the filter. Hope one of the presets can be a customizable one, like I have seen on other non-audio devices.

 

[TriN]

I'm more interested on the control part, but I wish you good luck with the filter. Hope one of the presets can be a customizable one, like I have seen on other non-audio devices.

the control part, meaning the app?
It is a web app packaged into a mac .dmg, you should be able to extract its content on linux.
You can run the index.html just fine, the app will run in your web browser.
It's actually smart, the same app runs on windows, mac, ios... the communication is done thru web socket, the device's usb port is some kind of ethernet bridge.

 

[TriN]

the source is also available on Windows, and much more, the Visual Studio project is also included!
C:/Program%20Files%20(x86)/MOTU/Gen5/CueMix5/resources/app/src/www/index.html

 

[madmalkav]

Hahaha thanks for the tip, gonna download it before they remove it.

PS: I just discovered the Ultralite AVB have ethernet and you can connect from any computer to the control software through a browser? If that's the case it may be a very good option for Linux users, I will have to investigate that...

PPS: seems like ultralite avb in Linux using USB is not good

 

[Nspace]

MotU is on fire! One month after, a new firmware update with plenty of improvements.

MOTU Gen 5 Installer​

Version: 92060
Release Date: Aug. 30, 2022

Supported Platforms​

Windows 11, Windows 10 64-bit

Changes​

• Improved support for Jamulus.
• Implemented firmware update recovery mechanism.
• Added a checkbox to CM5 and the MSeries GUI controller to enable or disable synchronizing the Windows sample rate to the device. Enabled by default for better performance with more Windows audio clients.
• Allow ASIO clients to change the buffer size.
• Improved audio stability when the host is receiving MIDI input from the device.
• Fixed an audio glitch that could occur for non-ASIO clients (particularly at large buffer sizes) when the system sample rate does not match the device's.
• Improved performance for clients using Windows audio APIs.
• Improved performance for ASIO clients using small buffer sizes.
• Adds makeup gain to compressors.
• Adds EQ to Reverb bus.
• Adds Mix USB Channels menu.
• Adds additional sources for phones and loopback.
• Adds defaults button to reverb view.
• Adds headphone source menu.
• Additionally allow Reverb Dry Mix or Reverb Wet Mix to be the loopback source.
• Additionally allow Reverb Dry Mix or Phones Mix to be sources for TOSLink and/or SPDIF.
• Allow moving loopback channels to host input channels 1 and 2.
• Allow mixing host output channels in the Reverb Mix bus.
• Improves stability for WDM streams at large buffer sizes (Win).
• Support for 2048 and 4096 sample buffers at 1x sample rates, and 4096 sample frame buffers at 2x sample rates (Win).
• Restricts updating to incompatible firmware versions
• Bug fixes and improvements.

 

[Trell]

MotU is on fire! One month after, a new firmware update with plenty of improvements.

MOTU Gen 5 Installer​

Version: 92060
Release Date: Aug. 30, 2022

Supported Platforms​

Windows 11, Windows 10 64-bit

Changes​

• Improved support for Jamulus.
• Implemented firmware update recovery mechanism.
• Added a checkbox to CM5 and the MSeries GUI controller to enable or disable synchronizing the Windows sample rate to the device. Enabled by default for better performance with more Windows audio clients.
• Allow ASIO clients to change the buffer size.
• Improved audio stability when the host is receiving MIDI input from the device.
• Fixed an audio glitch that could occur for non-ASIO clients (particularly at large buffer sizes) when the system sample rate does not match the device's.
• Improved performance for clients using Windows audio APIs.
• Improved performance for ASIO clients using small buffer sizes.
• Adds makeup gain to compressors.
• Adds EQ to Reverb bus.
• Adds Mix USB Channels menu.
• Adds additional sources for phones and loopback.
• Adds defaults button to reverb view.
• Adds headphone source menu.
• Additionally allow Reverb Dry Mix or Reverb Wet Mix to be the loopback source.
• Additionally allow Reverb Dry Mix or Phones Mix to be sources for TOSLink and/or SPDIF.
• Allow moving loopback channels to host input channels 1 and 2.
• Allow mixing host output channels in the Reverb Mix bus.
• Improves stability for WDM streams at large buffer sizes (Win).
• Support for 2048 and 4096 sample buffers at 1x sample rates, and 4096 sample frame buffers at 2x sample rates (Win).
• Restricts updating to incompatible firmware versions
• Bug fixes and improvements.

The "Implemented firmware update recovery mechanism." along with "Restricts updating to incompatible firmware versions" is major improvements as this will help prevent bricked devices. It's very nice to see MOTU implement it.

 

[Nspace]

MotU is on fire! One month after, a new firmware update with plenty of improvements.

MOTU Gen 5 Installer​

Version: 92060
Release Date: Aug. 30, 2022

Supported Platforms​

Windows 11, Windows 10 64-bit

Changes​

• Improved support for Jamulus.
• Implemented firmware update recovery mechanism.
• Added a checkbox to CM5 and the MSeries GUI controller to enable or disable synchronizing the Windows sample rate to the device. Enabled by default for better performance with more Windows audio clients.
• Allow ASIO clients to change the buffer size.
• Improved audio stability when the host is receiving MIDI input from the device.
• Fixed an audio glitch that could occur for non-ASIO clients (particularly at large buffer sizes) when the system sample rate does not match the device's.
• Improved performance for clients using Windows audio APIs.
• Improved performance for ASIO clients using small buffer sizes.
• Adds makeup gain to compressors.
• Adds EQ to Reverb bus.
• Adds Mix USB Channels menu.
• Adds additional sources for phones and loopback.
• Adds defaults button to reverb view.
• Adds headphone source menu.
• Additionally allow Reverb Dry Mix or Reverb Wet Mix to be the loopback source.
• Additionally allow Reverb Dry Mix or Phones Mix to be sources for TOSLink and/or SPDIF.
• Allow moving loopback channels to host input channels 1 and 2.
• Allow mixing host output channels in the Reverb Mix bus.
• Improves stability for WDM streams at large buffer sizes (Win).
• Support for 2048 and 4096 sample buffers at 1x sample rates, and 4096 sample frame buffers at 2x sample rates (Win).
• Restricts updating to incompatible firmware versions
• Bug fixes and improvements.

The above description pertains to the new CUE driver version 4.0.9.2060

The release notes for the new firmware are:
-UltraLite-mk5 Firmware: Version: 1.1.7+2398
-Release Date: Aug. 30, 2022|

-Summary Changes:
Improved USB error recovery.
Adds makeup gain to compressors.
Adds EQ to Reverb bus.
Adds support for mixing additional host output channels.
Allow moving loopback channels to host input channels 1 and 2.
Allow mixing host output channels in the Reverb Mix bus
Improved clipping behavior with phase invert turned on.
Fixed an occasional issue with startup after soft power on, where inputs would be scrambled or contain static.
Fixed repeated buffer when connected to powered USB hub, and hub is disconnected from host.
Fixed MIDI on Windows.
Bug fixes and improvements.


-Install Instructions:
Latest version of CueMix 5 is required for (firmware) installation. If an update is available for CueMix 5, please install this first. To update the firmware version in your UltraLite-mk5, open CueMix 5 on your computer, navigate to the Device tab and click "Open..." next to "Firmware Updater to launch the firmware updater app.

 

[carat]

For those of you connecting consumer/prosumer analog sources to the UltraLite-mk5, are you doing so directly or via a DI box?

 

[Sieniek]

Hi guys, I have Motu MK5 and I am trying to use it with my active stereo speakers, subwoofers and eventually some 5.1 audio with my windows 10 laptop as a source. I have Multichannel Dirac Live on my laptop but I'm trying to understand and learn which programs do I need to make everything working together best ? Which program for active crossovers ? How to install ASIO ? Etc.

Probably very basic things but I'm lost a little bit.

Raf