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MOTU UltraLite-mk5 in fully active setup

manisandher

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I thought some people here might be interested in how the MOTU UltraLite-mk5 performs as a multi-channel DAC in a fully active setup.

Roon -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 monos -> Impulse H2 speakers (British speakers from the '90s)

All DSP done in Roon.

I absolutely LOVE the sound of this setup.

Here's a short vid (taken with my phone, so not great quality):

Mani.
 
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manisandher

manisandher

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I wasn't sure where to put this, so decided to stick it in this thread...

I've just burned a new microSD card with the latest Eunhasu V0.5.2 version for my SOtM sMS-200 streamer. This uses the 5.10.20 Linux kernel.

The SOtM works perfectly with the Okto dac8 PRO, with all the Roon DSP functionality required for an active setup working correctly (just as it did with the previous Eunhasu V0.4.22 version).

Unfortunately, I still can't get the SOtM to work with the MOTU UltraLite-mk5. After clicking play, everything looks OK in Roon (the counter moves, etc.), but as before, there's just no output from the UltraLite. I've tried pretty much everything I can think of, but still no luck. (The UltraLite has the latest firmware.)

It would have been nice to get this working, but not a big deal really. I'll just continue to use the UltraLite with a PC, which has the added benefit of giving me access to CueMix whenever I need it.

Massive thanks to SOtM for their customer service. I contacted them a few months ago about this issue, and May (from SOtM) replied telling me that they would update the kernel in November, which is exactly what they did. In contrast with the defensive, if not downright rude, response I got from iFi, after contacting them about the same issue when using their Stream. Suffice to say, I will happily buy a SOtM product going forward, but never again an iFi.

Hope this helps anyone on a similar 'fully active' journey to myself.

Mani.
 
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manisandher

manisandher

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The MOTU UltraLite-mk5 now works with Eunhasu V0.5.2 and Linux kernel 5.11.22 on the SOtM sMS-200 streamer! A big thanks to SOtM for bothering to update the kernel for their streamers (unlike iFi who don't seem to give a damn, and who are still on 4.4 for the Zen).

All Roon DSP functionality (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ting-up-an-active-crossover-using-roon.29882/) seems to work perfectly. But at the moment, I can only get 44.1 & 48kHz rates to work.

Will report back as soon as I can get other rates working.

Mani.
 

mccarty350

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How does the Motu stack up against your Okto? Given that they are perpetually backordered I'm always looking for fully active solutions.
 
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manisandher

manisandher

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I haven't compared the Okto and MOTU directly, mainly because one uses XLR and the other TRS ouptus, and I can't easily switch the interconnects (the ICs for the Okto are 10m long and run from my cellar to the listening room). I suspect both units would sound pretty similar though - they sound spectacular in their respective systems.

I have recently compared the headphone output of the MOTU to that of the RME ADI-2 (Pro fs BE AKM, etc.) however, and the RME is significantly better. I'm putting this down to a better/beefier headphone amp in the RME. So, if you intend to do some headphone listening too, the MOTU may not be the best solution. Haven't compared the Otko headphone output to the RME yet...

Mani.
 

mccarty350

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I won't be using either for headphones so I'm mostly concerned about:
1. Making sure I can use all 8 channels without issue for channel mapping for active crossovers.
2. Finding a way to run music through a convolver while also allowing system sounds and games to pass through. This is more difficult than it should be. I've had to play my music through jriver with jriver pointing at voicemeeter and my default sound card system driver also pointing at voicemeeter using it as a mixer and then pointing voicemeeter to a dedicated convolver which then points to my actual audio interface. That's just too much complexity.
3. Driver stability and functionality.
4. That the output on the Motu is hot enough. The convolution ends up dropping output volume significantly. I can try to compensate with it by boosting the signal in voicemeeter to below where clipping occurs but it's still not as full and loud as I'd like it with my existing Behringer UMC1820 interface whose output just seems anemic.
 

mccarty350

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Let me ask this - has anyone seen a good guide to maximizing output volume without creating clipping? Almost every convolution file I've generated seems to have knocked something on the order of 10db or more. Within JRIVER I can add a general overall boost to all channels but I can only add a modest amount before JRIVER starts reporting that I'm hitting almost 100% i.e. very close to clipping. My guess is that the only way I can gain that back is either with a preamp or a sound card or interface that has really hot higher voltage outputs to drive the amplifier with more signal am I correct? If there is already a thread on this topic I apologize.
 

dualazmak

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My guess is that the only way I can gain that back is either with a preamp or a sound card or interface that has really hot higher voltage outputs to drive the amplifier with more signal am I correct?

Hello @mccarty350,

One of the nice solutions for your concern is to use HiFi grade (excellent) "integrated amplifiers" in our active digital multichannel multi-driver multi-way multi-amplifier audio systems. We may also choose each of the most suitable (and affordable) integrated amplifiers depending on the frequency zone; usually we have no need to use much-powerful amplifiers in mid to high frequency zones.

My post here would be also of your interest;
- Even Greg Timbers uses "reasonable and budget" Pioneer Elite A-20 for compression drivers (super tweeters) in his extraordinary expensive multichannel stereo system with JBL Everest DD67000 which he himself designed and developed: #435

Even though I assume you are already well aware of my such project, please let me invite you and other people on this thread to my project thread.

You would please find my latest system setup here on the project thread.

The general bases and background of my selection of "integrated amplifiers" can be found in this post.

A few days ago, I again pointed here about the pros of using "integrated amplifiers" in terms of safety and flexibility for (even on-the-fly) relative gain controls between the SP drivers.
 

mccarty350

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Dualazmak you are the greatest! I really really don't want to throw more cash at an integrated multichannel amplifier given that I already have power amps (perhaps a multichannel preamp but that would likely cost as much as an integrated amplifier) but it's a great suggestion and I'm absolutely going to read all of your posts and take it under consideration.

I absolutely follow your project thread, it's what I used to implement my first active crossover designs - thank you so much! Literally it's been my primary guide on how to implement things.

I'm going to take a look at your integrated amplifiers post now.
 

mccarty350

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Dualazmak, I found an alternate solution to getting some gain. I found that one of the latter day flagship products that fits the bill has become incredibly cheap. It turns out that the Sherbourn PT-7010a 8 channel preamp/processor (8 channels of RCA AND XLR input/output) fits the bill and I picked one up for no joke ~200 shipped. Note that this product is also branded as the Sunfire Theater Grand IV and Emotiva DMC-1 i.e. the same product with he same product manual sold with slightly different cosmetics and brands. It certainly smells like it's high quality but without formalized measurements I am only speculating. I just hooked it up a few hours ago and have been tinkering but definitely I'm getting some gain and the volume control works just fine.

 
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dualazmak

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Hello @mccarty350,

Thank you for the info on Sherbourn PT-7010a. I just googled and got basic understandings on this AVR multichannel preamp/processor.

I am wondering, however, the "sound quality, SQ" of the volume/gain controller(s) in PT-7010a.

As you may agree with me, the volume/gain controls in line-level signals do affect the SQ, and hence all of the companies producing HiFi stereo pre-amplifers and integrated amplifiers have been developing SOTA (state-of-the-art) non-VR type volume controllers. I believe the "quality" of volume controller (including S/N, linearity over wide dynamic range, durability for decades, reproducibility, etc., etc.) would be really the core factor especially in the audio system with extremely sensitive HiFi grade like our multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier setups.

Furthermore, we always use on-the-fly master volume controller (and relative gain controllers) during our daily music listening sessions; the total "SQ" of these controllers, therefore, are really critical in our multichannel setup.

You can find in my post here how much carefully I selected each of the HiFi "integrated" amplifiers (with really nice non-VR type volume controller) in my project. You would please note that SONY TA-A1ES and YAMAHA A-S300 are not so expensive but in rather reasonably affordable "budget" league, and ACCUPHASE E-460 (which I have been using as my reference amp) and newly introduced YAMAHA A-S3000 are belong to a little bit expensive high-end league.

If you would goole these amplifiers in detail and would find their SOTA "volume controllers", you can easily understand my obsessions on high SQ durable "volume controllers".

I understand that you may "functionally" use Sherbourn PT-7010a as multichannel pre-amplifier in after-DAC line-level signals. I am a little bit afraid of, however, when you will compare the total SQ of PT-7010a with SOTA HiFi grade (not always needed to be expensive!) in your advanced multichannel setup, you would become highly possibly unsatisfactory with PT-7010a.

I actually experienced the similar slightly but obvious "unsatisfactory SQ" when I intensively tested Yamaha MX-A5200 (class-AB) 11-Ch AV amplifier, in comparison with my "reference passive system" with one ACCUPHASE E-460. That was really the start of my long intensive amplifier exploration journey.

I highly recommend you to establish and keep your own "reference high SQ passive audio system" all the way through your multichannel setup journey. You need to go step-by-step by intensively checking/confirming your specific "one-step-forward" would really have improved SQ in comparison with your reference system, in your room acoustic environments.

You should not change multiple factors at once; otherwise pros and cons of your multiple changes would cancel with each other, and you would not be able to know what would be the real pros and cons.

My entire project has been progressing in that way...
 

mccarty350

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Let me provide some background about why I'm very unconcerned for my use case.

1. My primary system in my music room leverages resistive step ladder volume control and a system that is arguably SOTA.
2. This system is literally only for my office where I spend a lot of my day working - I can handle less than perfect for my second multichannel in my office.
3. $200 for a device that used to be considered state of the art in it's day that is midfi now for a secondary room is what I would call a 'bargain'
4. This system is for me to do testing and raw learning while listening to music intermittently and having a great office sound system. Anything that I learn I can transfer at scale to the larger system.

My primary system uses dual outlaw 5000's that are manufactured by ATI behind the scenes.
 

dualazmak

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Hello again @mccarty350,

Thank you for your descriptions on your two (actually three?) audio systems! Now I fully understand your office audio system for which you would use Sherbourn PT-7010a.

In my office upstairs, I (just like you do!) have desktop PC-based audio system in which I use EKIO too feeding XO/Time-Align/EQ-ed 8 channels into one (single!) DAC, OPPO Sonica DAC, driving Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 THX Certified Computer Speaker having fairly nice sub-woofer;
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Klipsch+ProMedia+2.1+THX&ref=nb_sb_noss
Still really good and very nice sound quality in desktop PC audio category. I fully agree with this review;
https://www.audioreputation.com/klipsch-promedia-2-1/

You would please understand that my above post #11 is intending to provide general approach for rather large-scale, in main listening room, full multichannel multi-amplifier audio system.

In any way, I do hope and believe you would fully enjoy and establish wonderful active multichannel multi-amplifier audio systems in your main music listening room and also in your office!


P.S. Just one point, for your reference and consideration,,,

Before starting my current multichannel project, I intensively searched and learned so many "volume/gain control" technologies in analog line-level audio signals, and I too was very much interested in (fascinated about) the "resistive step ladder volume control" approach with high-quality fixed resistors and gold-plated (on silver plate) precision multiple terminal SOTA(!) rotary ladder switches just like http://www.tachyon.co.jp/~sichoya/bpkit/att/att.html as typical examples.

Then, later-on, one of my audio enthu semi-professional friends/engineers pointed, however, we may have possible non-uniform "burn-in" (or "aging" we say in Japan) over the so may multiple fixed resistors which is inevitable minor cons with these "resistive step ladder" volume/gain controllers. Of course, I well understand that each of the "volume/gain controller" technologies have pros and cons.
Edit to add:
Furthermore, if we would like to apply it in full-balanced line-level signals, we always need to have dual (double layer) "resistive step ladder" switches in each channel line, and this would double the possibilities of mis-matching of the fixed resistors, and would double the cost. L-to-R gain balance is always depending on the selection and precisions of the fixed resistors on the rotary switch, and the L-to-R balance continuity (as well as SQ continuity) over minimum to max gains would be the major concern in these "resistive step ladder" controllers.

Yes, we should select "volume/gain" controllers based on total combination (pros and cons) of various factors/features not only in terms of sound quality but also in terms of usabilities and functionalities, and budget (of course), of our individual audio system; there should be no single best choice at all. So many choices and selections, it is really one of the wonderful aspects of audio system building!

At least, just in my case, my choice and selection were resulted in the utilization of HiFi "integrated amplifiers" in my multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier full-scale audio system.
 
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mccarty350

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Hello again @mccarty350,

Thank you for your descriptions on your two (actually three?) audio systems! Now I fully understand your office audio system for which you would use Sherbourn PT-7010a.

In my office upstairs, I (just like you do!) have desktop PC-based audio system in which I use EKIO too feeding XO/Time-Align/EQ-ed 8 channels into one (single!) DAC, OPPO Sonica DAC, driving Klipsch ProMedia 2.1 THX Certified Computer Speaker having fairly nice sub-woofer;
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Klipsch+ProMedia+2.1+THX&ref=nb_sb_noss
Still really good and very nice sound quality in desktop PC audio category. I fully agree with this review;
https://www.audioreputation.com/klipsch-promedia-2-1/

You would please understand that my above post #11 is intending to provide general approach for rather large-scale, in main listening room, full multichannel multi-amplifier audio system.

In any way, I do hope and believe you would fully enjoy and establish wonderful active multichannel multi-amplifier audio systems in your main music listening room and also in your office!


P.S. Just one point, for your reference and consideration,,,

Before starting my current multichannel project, I intensively searched and learned so many "volume/gain control" technologies in analog line-level audio signals, and I too was very much interested in (fascinated about) the "resistive step ladder volume control" approach with high-quality fixed resistors and gold-plated (on silver plate) precision multiple terminal SOTA(!) rotary ladder switches just like http://www.tachyon.co.jp/~sichoya/bpkit/att/att.html as typical examples.

Then, later-on, one of my audio enthu semi-professional friends/engineers pointed, however, we may have possible non-uniform "burn-in" (or "aging" we say in Japan) over the so may multiple fixed resistors which is inevitable minor cons with these "resistive step ladder" volume/gain controllers. Of course, I well understand that each of the "volume/gain controller" technologies have pros and cons.
Edit to add:
Furthermore, if we would like to apply it in full-balanced line-level signals, we always need to have dual (double layer) "resistive step ladder" switches in each channel line, and this would double the possibilities of mis-matching of the fixed resistors, and would double the cost. L-to-R gain balance is always depending on the selection and precisions of the fixed resistors on the rotary switch, and the L-to-R balance continuity (as well as SQ continuity) over minimum to max gains would be the major concern in these "resistive step ladder" controllers.

Yes, we should select "volume/gain" controllers based on total combination (pros and cons) of various factors/features not only in terms of sound quality but also in terms of usabilities and functionalities, and budget (of course), of our individual audio system; there should be no single best choice at all. So many choices and selections, it is really one of the wonderful aspects of audio system building!

At least, just in my case, my choice and selection were resulted in the utilization of HiFi "integrated amplifiers" in my multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier full-scale audio system.
I have too many systems Dualazmak much like most of us hobbyists. My office system I rotate all manner of speakers in and out constantly so it's never a static configuration.

Right know it's a pair of M&K MX-70's mated to a set of DIY Bagby Kairos that have passive crossovers but I'm running the system multichannel with a convolver shaping response between the passive speakers and subs. Just happens to be what's been on tap this week.

Absolutely, I know that your approaches apply to main/endgame systems, that's why I wanted you to know that I'm not being stringent on my requirements for my office system and I'm fine with items that have less than perfect SNR, THD, etc.

I'm 48 years old and my biological hardware is likely more of a limiter on the sound quality than any variance in resistor step ladder technology. I design to accommodate what I'm capable of hearing with my ears rather than any conceptual target or level of perfection that I am likley incapable of hearing at this stage. I know you're shooting for best of breed in everything and I applaud how thorough you've been, your choices however don't always apply to all listeners and their constraints. That's awesome to know what the Japanese term for burn-in is. Let me also add that as a person that's worked for a Japanese company for over a decade that's also been to Japan as a result that your command of English is superlative! So glad to have you available. Looks like your prefecture is east Tokyo, I just looked it up. I usually end up in Kodaira. I can tell you however that my favorite place to go is Shinjuku + Golden Gai. Great times there!!!

By the way, I did read your list and researched most of your integrated amplifiers, I just knew I had two ways to fulfill my needs in my office and the most expedient short term and budgetary solution (as well as a very flexible one) was to purchase the Sherbourn which for the crazy low price is a solid unit for a secondary or tertiary system.
 
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dualazmak

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I design to accommodate what I'm capable of hearing with my ears rather than any conceptual target or level of perfection that incapable of hearing at this stage.
....
your choices however don't always apply to all listeners and their constraints.
I fully understood and agree on these!
I usually end up in Kodaira. I can tell you however that my favorite place to go is Shinjuku + Golden Gai. Great times there!!!
Very nice to hear so. I am a semi-retired Ph.D. medical-pharmaceutical researcher/administrator worked for a pharmaceutical company for long and then moved to a National University in Kyoto for 6 years as Specially Appointed Professor. During that period at University, I also had parallel Visiting Scholar/Professor appointment at University of California San Diego in La Jolla having J1 research visa and I (we) often stayed there quite long, say consecutive several months.

In October 2018, I decided to retire from both universities and came back to my home in Ichihara City in Chiba prefecture, southeast from Tokyo. In hindsight, that was a nice timing since if I were to continue my work in San Diego area for somewhile longer, I should have had much difficulties in coming/traveling back to Japan because of the pandemic. Later-on, I heard that several Japanese researchers there actually had much trouble and difficulties in renewal of their J1 visa status.

I am now an independent medical-pharmaceutical consultant providing various supports (now mainly related to COVID-19 pandemic) to several local Government, industries and one Christian Community (churches, advanced hospitals and educational activities including a few Universities).

Sorry, but I have never stepped-in to Shinjuku+Golden Gai even though we (I and my wife) often drive to Shinjuku area for shopping, and to Akihabara Electric Town for my audio gear exploration... Maybe, you and I have already encountered (passed-by with each other) in Akihabara, or it may possibly happen in the near future in Shinjuku or Akihabara.:)
 
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mccarty350

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I figured that you came from a highly technical background given on how logically your documentation was laid out and your framework for recording information. The amount of time you spent in the US also makes sense on why you seem to have zero language barrier.

I think it's great that you were able to retire back in Tokyo, indeed if you hadn't have retired around that time you likely would have been stranded in the US for quite a while.

Hahahah, it's a crazy area I guess I shouldn't be surprised. It sometimes felt dangerous to a degree but always an adventure. I had no idea that there was an audio shop called Akihabara Electric Town, next time I'm there I will absolutely stop there and I will let you know next time in Tokyo but it will likely be quite a while, I haven't been on many global initiatives as of late. Frankly I don't miss them all that much because they result in meetings very early in the AM or very late at night ;)
 

phoenixdogfan

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I haven't compared the Okto and MOTU directly, mainly because one uses XLR and the other TRS ouptus, and I can't easily switch the interconnects (the ICs for the Okto are 10m long and run from my cellar to the listening room). I suspect both units would sound pretty similar though - they sound spectacular in their respective systems.

I have recently compared the headphone output of the MOTU to that of the RME ADI-2 (Pro fs BE AKM, etc.) however, and the RME is significantly better. I'm putting this down to a better/beefier headphone amp in the RME. So, if you intend to do some headphone listening too, the MOTU may not be the best solution. Haven't compared the Otko headphone output to the RME yet...

Mani.
I'm using six channel of the Octo for my 5.1 and the remaining two channels to drive my THX AAA 789. Both headphone and speaker systems sound great.
 
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manisandher

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@manisandher have you tried RoPieee 2022.06.4 (0458) with the Motu yet via Roon? I did and it didn't work so thought I'd ask if you did by chance.

Hi Jason, no I haven't. I only have a SOtM sMS-200, so am confined to whatever SOtM offers.

Mani.
 

jtwrace

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Hi Jason, no I haven't. I only have a SOtM sMS-200, so am confined to whatever SOtM offers.

Mani.
And it actually works with the MK5 without issues with Roon?
 
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