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Motu M4 Audio Interface Review

somebodyelse

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Though I still wonder if there's a way to send the 2-channel squeezelite output to the input of the Motu, then back thru brutefir and then to the outputs of the Motu, or am I crazy?
If I understand what you're aiming for you'd send the 2-channel output of squeezelite to BruteFIR (or camilla or whatever else you're using to do the crossover), usually via alsaloop, and the 3 or 4 outputs of BruteFIR to the Motu. I guess you'd be using software volume as the Motu outputs 3 and 4 are fixed level.
 

forma

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Let's just say I wouldn't be holding my breath. Cans like that are pretty noncritical. They're generally fine with around 2 Vrms max output and <25 ohms of output impedance, plus easy on the output stage at 300 ohms. (Keep in mind they're rated 97 dB SPL @ 1 mW. You need all but 4 mW for 103 dB and 20 mW for 110 dB SPL. That's 2.45 Vrms = +10 dBu. At the same time, they're not too fussed about 10-20 µV of output noise.) The only thing even less critical I can think of would be an ATH-R70x, similar sensitivity but at 470 ohms nominal.

So generally speaking, HD600s are among the last cans you need more than a basic amplifier for. Something MAX97220 based is just fine. The M2's output ought to be perfectly adequate, it measured well in Julian Krause's testing. The only thing one might need an extra amplifier for is more gain for material with unusually low digital levels.

It is always easy to be tempted by better performance and higher output and whatnot, but at some point output impedance is low enough for a <0.3 dB deviation in frequency response, maximum output is loud enough and noise and distortion are inaudible. If you get to this point, the gear is transparent. A better amplifier may achieve this over a wider range of loads (you might have both super sensitive BA IEMs and an AKG K340 or a Hifiman HE-6 in your arsenal, now that gets tricky), but with a lone HD600 you should find that a lot of solutions are 100% equivalent, with differences in performance being measurable but not audible.

In the upgradeitis-infested lands of audiophilia, there is never such a thing as good enough, of course. ;)

For some real audible changes, I might give parametric EQ a shot; you'll find some presets for the HD600s out there.

I do appreciate the reality check :) I suppose curiousity is getting the better of me as I've never gone beyond budget audio interfaces and always held the assumption the HD600's were a tad hard to drive and required something better, but perhaps not then.

I've actually tried Equalizer APO in the past to change the EQ in Windows. It added a nice low end i never thought the HD600s were capable of. Just a db here and there made a large difference.
 

AnalogSteph

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Only "hard to drive" by portable device standards perhaps - I found my trusty HD580 was just about at the limit of what a Sansa Clip+ could provide with very dynamic classical music at the highest levels I could tolerate, i.e. pretty much a worst-case scenario. This with a device that could provide up to 800 mVrms at +3 dB volume, though in this case I think I was running out of gain rather than actual maximum voltage output (maximum volume setting is +6 dB, for a gain of ~1.12 Vrms / 0 dBFS).

This would have been with my usual -3 dB pre-gain setting for ReplayGain, and quite probably with material RG scanned with the old Foobar2000 algorithm, pre-R.128 - the current one seems to give gains about 1.5-2 dB higher on orchestral recordings fairly consistently. So digital peak level may have been no higher than -5 dBFS or so (assuming the recording got close to 0 dBFS in the first place), or 2 dB below 800 mV output (~635 mV) on the analog side.

The M2 output delivers something like 9 dB more, gain wise, or 10 dB more, level wise. At the same time, the noise floor is down at -108ish dBV(A), which with a 102 dB / V sensitivity translates to an inaudible -6 dB SPL. Hence why I'm utterly unconcerned.
 

Tks

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This is one of the best pieces of hardware to ever come to the segment.

- Mic Preamps (w/Phantom Power)
- Instrument Preamps
- Good enough AKM ADC
- Decent ESS DAC
- Headphone Amp
- 5v Amp output (bus powered)
- LCD metering
- Loopback with Monitoring
- Well built
- USB-C

All this for ~$220. Explains why this unit is out of stock EVERYWHERE for months. I brought it on Guitar Center back in May, still waiting for the backorder.

_
I wish Motu would release a new M6/M8 line with the AKM/ES issues improved, plus raw digital audio (optical/coax) support @ 192/32 with self/auto clocking
Optical Coax with 32 bit depth?
 

zandm7

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Just to be sure:

If I wanted to use this as a DAC with the Massdrop THX 789, I could use the balanced 1/4" TRS outputs and connect it to the THX via a set of TRS-to-XLR cables right?

And assumedly the Motu M2 is the same as the M4 besides having less inputs and outputs, yeah?
 

Blumlein 88

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Just to be sure:

If I wanted to use this as a DAC with the Massdrop THX 789, I could use the balanced 1/4" TRS outputs and connect it to the THX via a set of TRS-to-XLR cables right?

And assumedly the Motu M2 is the same as the M4 besides having less inputs and outputs, yeah?
Yes TRS to XLR cables will be just fine. Will still be a balanced connection.

As for M2 vs M4 I think they are pretty much the same other than I/O differences.
 

zandm7

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Oh yeah, another quick question:

Does anyone know what level I should be setting the "Monitor" gain knob to if using this as a DAC thru RCA into, say, a JDS Labs Atom?

EDIT: I just realized that the MOTU M2 doesn't have line out outputs the way the M4 does...does this mean it is unsuitable to be used as a DAC??
 

Atanasi

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Does anyone know what level I should be setting the "Monitor" gain knob to if using this as a DAC thru RCA into, say, a JDS Labs Atom?

EDIT: I just realized that the MOTU M2 doesn't have line out outputs the way the M4 does...does this mean it is unsuitable to be used as a DAC??
Full volume is usually fine, but you can choose less if you want a more appropriate range for Atom.

What do you mean doesn't have line outs?
 

zandm7

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Full volume is usually fine, but you can choose less if you want a more appropriate range for Atom.

What do you mean doesn't have line outs?

1601653829046.png

The M2 only has "Monitor" outputs instead of having both Line Out and Monitor outputs like on the M4.

In hindsight it seems likely that the line outs on the M4 are just the same as the monitor outputs, but fixed to max gain? I don't know for sure though, lol
 

Atanasi

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In hindsight it seems likely that the line outs on the M4 are just the same as the monitor outputs, but fixed to max gain? I don't know for sure though, lol
It seems the RCA outputs are the same as TRS, but RCAs are unbalanced and have a different reference level. RCA monitor outputs are volume-controlled like TRS.
 

zandm7

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It seems the RCA outputs are the same as TRS, but RCAs are unbalanced and have a different reference level. RCA monitor outputs are volume-controlled like TRS.

Yeah. The thing I was talking about is that the M4 has a second set of RCA and TRS outputs labeled as "Line Out," whereas the M2 only has the one set of RCA and TRS outputs labeled as "Monitor." I assume the difference between Line Out and Monitor outputs is that the latter are volume-controlled by the big knob in front, whereas the former are fixed-volume.

What I was wondering is if there is any functional difference in the output of Line Out vs Monitor outputs that could cause the latter to be unsuitable (or suboptimal) to feed into a headphone amplifier.
 

Atanasi

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What I was wondering is if there is any functional difference in the output of Line Out vs Monitor outputs that could cause the latter to be unsuitable (or suboptimal) to feed into a headphone amplifier.
No, they are both line outputs. Monitor is volume-controlled.
 

6speed

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I just received the M2 as a replacement for my Behringer UMC204HD for speaker testing. The UMC204HD has a decent DAC, but the ADC has high 2nd order distortion and makes multitone tests worthless.

Here are my baseline loopback tests. After a little experimenting, I ended up with the gain turned the way down, which increases noise a hair but decreases distortion as well.

Measurement conditions:
  • Gain: 0%
  • Monitor (volume) knob: 3:00
  • SR: 192kHz
  • FFT: 4M
RCA out to adapted TRS in:
M2 G0 M3_00 RCA-TRS.png


TRS out to TRS in:
M2 G0 M3_00 TRS-TRS.png


Using TRS-TRS, the measured level was 6dB higher and noise almost 6dB lower as expected, but the 5th harmonic was almost 6dB higher as well.

The multitone (RCA loopback, long FFT with averaging) is much cleaner than my Behringer.

M2 Multi 1_3oct RCA.png
 

6speed

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M2 noise comparison with no loopback cable vs RCA and TRS cables. Only RCA shows mains leakage.

M2 Noise loopback comparison.png
 

AnalogSteph

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That's not mains leakage, that's ground loop noise. I presume your adapter solution does not take advantage of the balanced input at all, a common issue.

For lower input levels, you can give the mic input (XLR) a shot as well.

Your software (what is it, REW?) does some slightly weird things.
1. Noise floor in the distortion measurement appears to be integrated over frequency.
2. Noise floor is rather higher than I'd expect with a 4M FFT. This may be due to a "show only tops" options like in RMAA, which costs you like 9 dB there. 161 dB - 63 dB (processing gain) - 9 dB would be~= 107 dB, still a bit lower than I'd expect. I'd like to see what RMAA has to say on the matter.

What is shown very nicely is the intermodulation rising towards higher frequencies, as well as rising 3rd harmonic, both very typical of low-power opamps.

BTW - if memory serves, seeing best (stock) ADC performance on the UMC204HD requires using the (unbalanced) inserts. Max level is still limited to about -5 dBFS.
 

6speed

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That's not mains leakage, that's ground loop noise. I presume your adapter solution does not take advantage of the balanced input at all, a common issue.

Thanks for the correction on the group loop noise, and you are correct that my RCA => TRS does not result in a balanced input signal.

For lower input levels, you can give the mic input (XLR) a shot as well.

BTW - if memory serves, seeing best (stock) ADC performance on the UMC204HD requires using the (unbalanced) inserts. Max level is still limited to about -5 dBFS.

Apparently I was wrong--I have a UMC202HD and not a 204. I used the TRS/XLR (mic) input on both the M2 and the UMC202HD because that is all they provide and they are supposed to do double duty since they have gain controls. Since these are for speaker measurements, using the same input makes sense.
 

zandm7

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More questions:

I've seen some sentiment on this thread that M2/M4 users should be working in 48 kHz when producing tracks and only downsampling to 44.1 kHz at export (if necessary) due to the default filters being designed for 48 kHz.

My question is: Does this also affect how I should be using this as a DAC? i.e. Should I be setting my output to 48 kHz in Windows sound settings too?

Also, the MOTU Control Panel (i.e.
1601842477282.png
) allows you to choose sample rate independently of Windows sound settings... Is it okay to leave this at 48 kHz and Windows sound settings output at 44.1 kHz, or is that suboptimal / will cause me problems? Should I always keep this control panel and Windows settings at the same sample rate?
 
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