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Motu 624 vs Motu MK5 (in 2023)

Lifted

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Hello, gentlemen

Can you please tell me which device should I buy in 2023, I have issues with my loveable Focusrite Saffire Pro 40, that tends to lose sync through firewire, of course caused by Windows 11.

Which one would provide a better sounding main output and overall better performance?
I read Amirm reviews, and I also comprehend that MK5 is newer, yet I read more positive reviews on older 624.

Can you please explain your reasons?
I am connecting using USB. 624 has better latency as it is USB 3.0, and MK5 is USB 2.0, but newer.

I tried Motu M4 and sound was bad and lots of drop outs.
Tried Scarlet 18i20, and it was also causing drop out.
I can go on and on, but wondering between these units here: 624 vs MK5?
 

somebodyelse

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You shouldn't be getting dropouts with any of them. I'd be looking at the computer as the problem.
 
OP
L

Lifted

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You shouldn't be getting dropouts with any of them. I'd be looking at the computer as the problem.
3 motherboards later, and new cpus, and still same issues.

I read many of the same reviews with same audio units I have tried. It's not isolated incidents, sadly.

I am leaning towards PCIE card by RME now, USB interfaces and Windows 10/11 is not a match in heaven. Clearly, when you can't maintain same buffers as my older Saffire Pro 40, on new and improved 24 core machine that is completely stable and tuned for performance (with no power savings or bios issues).

USB 2.0 is only part of the issue. Quality control is not great for many manufacturers, including new Focusrite Scarlett causing blue screens of death for many users. It is not issue with computer, it's the lack of testing by said manufacturers, and lack of compatibility with Windows 10/11, I had zero issues with Windows 8.1 and Windows 7, but I am not going back to 10 year old Windows just to make my audio devices work stable.

I ran Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 at 96khz and 64 buffer samples on 2 core Macbook, with zero drop outs and zero pops and clicks, then ran it on i7-4790k Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 for next 10 years, and had zero drop outs.

You can't fix something that is not easily seen, like interface integrations to new operating systems. This is why most audio engineers run Macs, because most audio device manufacturers hone their products to Mac, but neglect Windows.

This has been so for past 20+ years, there is a problem between interfaces running through USB and Windows 10/11, let alone aging Firewire devices and aged standard that cannot truly play nicely with newer Windows systems.

Every new Windows update the internal clock trips more and more, doesn't happen on Windows 8.1 though. I wouldn't go past 8.1 Windows if I made money from audio engineering. Jump to Mac if you have ability and check compatibilities of drivers.

Still doesn't solve anything on the actual hardware side. I used to build and fix computers for a living, and I am also a recording engineer by old profession, but no longer work for money in audio field.

I tell you, brotha...it's clear that most companies cut corners, be that Asus, Focusrite, Gigabyte, Windows corp, Intel and AMD, and they don't work together on stuff for audio engineering. Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 had worst drop outs, be that with i9-9900k (8 core top gen cpu for that time) and with newer cpus.

MOTU M4 would just completely go offline be that 128 samples of 256 samples, USB could not stay locked.
We took a huge step back in manufacturing after 2008, with Focusrite and MOTU, and I don't mean the converters are bad, or pres are bad, or sound is horrible, I mean they can't properly interface their own devices to Windows 10/11, without having instabilities...in systems that are tuned by people like me.

If I was a novice, I would just chuck it up to a single reason. BUT, I am not that judgmental, I look at this as a plethora of issues somewhere in internal clocking device, usb connectivity, the way Windows 10/11 communicates with your device, power savings that knock the interface offline, and even EMI/electrical spikes that can trip your motherboard into losing lock with USB device.

For an example, RTX 4090 that I use has transient spikes randomly, but PSU is supposed to handle that, well it can't, because transient spike can double the power requirement of the max GPU usage, and cause your PSU brakers to trip. Yet, it happened with RTX 3070 that drew less than 300 watts, and I ran 1000w EVGA Platinum power supply. It never tripped, but it would trip the audio device.

There are too many pieces that don't play together, and believe me, I tried other power supplies, I tried different firewire cards, I played with a buffer.
I set buffers to high values, even though I shouldn't, and every time it would trip.

Now it just trips while sitting at desktop screen.
I also run all my devices through power conditioner that alleviated a lot of electrical noise, but it can't fix the transient spikes your motherboard can create too, or gpu.

This subject is so deep, that jumping from 2006 audio device to 2023 can cause more issues than solve.
Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 is such a solid unit, I love it, and I will continue to use it as ADAT in for main out of my speakers, as long as I can.

I don't like Scarlett 18i20 as it colors upper registers, and makes sound more brittle than what it is.
But then Scarlett has clicks and pops with anything below 256 buffer for me.

This should not happen, you are right, but it does, and it will. This is why you have people reporting 5 stars for Scarlett, and then you have 1 star saying exact stuff as me. It's not crazy, it's indicative of all the issues I spoke about.

RME remains at top of the list of driver manufacturing for all platforms. There is a reason why they are confident with using USB 2.0 in many devices. They test their products. Most don't make good drivers or drop driver support, like Focusrite did with Saffire Pro 40.

I am convinced that somewhere in roles of CEOs we have a management issue, where upper management stopped caring about audio folks. They care for teenagers and making stuff brighter and more brittle sounding, just to confuse them. They add more lights and bright colors, but audio quality is worse.

Audient ID14 sounded very colored in mids on main output. Lows were meh.

MOTU M4 sounded like a thin clothes was put over the speaker, low end was weak and high end was not there. SSL interface sounded so bad, could not hold lock in Cubase.

This was on separate Windows 10 machines too.
If you're lucky, you will have no drop outs. If you are not, there is nothing you can do about them even if you set buffer to 1000+ buffer.

I ran Antelope Audio Zen Go, also drop outs.
All USB devices.

Cubase 5 would freak out with all these devices too, not just Youtube. Though I ran completely stable at 64 buffer samples with my Saffire Pro 40 in Cubase 5

This is not right, and manufacturers won't tell you which corners they cut.

Go Mac or use older Windows 7/8.1 to circumvent their corner cutting.

At least Mac is mostly good. I am done with Apple though, doesn't work for what I use my pc for
 
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AnalogSteph

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You are actually not alone with the kind of problems you are seeing. There are quite a few potential causes for audio dropouts and DPC latency issues in general, and I suggest studying e.g. this thread:

It could be:
* the AM4 fTPM issue
* memory clocks too high / timings overdone on AM4 (fairly common with DDR4-3600 memory)
* GPU not using an MSI mode interrupt (also check other components like network adapters, or your Firewire card)
* ...

GPUs are quite notorious bus hogs and tend to generate tons of interrupts, so switching from line-based interrupts to MSI may be highly beneficial.

For maximum performance in Windows 11, make sure Core Isolation is turned off. You may want to turn off virtualization features completely BIOS-side (e.g. VT-d, VT-x). Presumably using Windows Subsystem for Linux is not one of your top priorities.
You may also want to turn off the TPM entirely, after making sure that your boot volume is not BitLocker encrypted of course... (manage-bde -status)
For better general perfomance, set exclusions for file types and paths that Windows Defender's realtime scanner is not to be touching. (Excluding music file types works wonders for Foobar2000 responsiveness on an older machine.)

While you are digging through the BIOS setup, check the CPU C-State and ASPM-related settings as well. The bad rep of power saving features is generally unwarranted, and many boards have a habit of not enabling package C-States or ASPM and setting power limits in excess of CPU vendor specification even by default.
 

markz

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I was just using my Motu M4 for testing amplifiers and maybe I'm too old school but imho the performance was stunning. I was testing my Neurochrome Modulus-86 and the results were so good I double-checked with an Atom DAC and E1DA ADC - which produced exactly [+- a tiny bit] the same results. The below graph was M4-sampled through a -30dB tap and shows low noise and good ADC.

NeurochromeAmp_30.jpg

However, I tried using the M4 as a crossover with CamillaDSP and it failed badly with clicks/dropouts on Windows and Raspberry Pi but worked flawlessly on my Mac Mini M1. On the Mini I set it up for exclusive ownership of output and 96KHz S32LE i/o. That's the system I did amplifier checks with (the Mac Mini running REW via VNC). Luckily, I had a spare Mini around. I've listened to it as a crossover (analog in -> Mac+DSP -> analog out) for probably 100 hours and it sounds wow to my ears with never a click or dropout.

My impression is that Motu provides an ASIO driver for Windows PC but CamillaDSP required the stock Windows interface. If you can use the Motu ASIO driver for your application, it may work far better.
 
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