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Motu 624 Audio Interface Review

Rja4000

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1 millivolt seems awfully small signal here. Why not standardize on something higher?
Well, I suggested to do it at 1mV because that's around the sensitivity of some of the most common (and difficult to capture) dynamic microphones.

Shure SM58
Sensitivity (at 1,000 Hz Open Circuit Voltage)–54.5 dBV/Pa (1.85 mV)1 Pa = 94 dB SPL

Audix OM7
Sensitivity 0.8 mV / Pa @ 1k

Sennheiser E935
Sensitivity: 2.8 mV/Pa at 1 kHz = -51 dB (0 dB = 1V/Pa)

So 1mV or 2mV seems the lowest limit.
4mV may still be representative.

Typical approach is to measure preamp with 60dB gain.
But how to measure gain with an interface with ADC?
The only way to compare seems to measure all with an input signal of same level.

I couldn't find any standard level definition, except the EIN as described by @Blumlein 88 above.

Thanks for trying, by the way.
 
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amirm

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So 1mV or 2mV seems the lowest limit.
Here is the story on that. At 1 millivolts, the THD+N is just +N. THD is much lower. At 2 millivolts, they become equal.
 
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amirm

amirm

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What is a bigger problem with mic pre-amp? Noise or distortion? Seems to be the former to me. If so, then we can just measure the signal to noise ratio:

1573540393694.png


This is with 1 millivolt. Here, the gain doesn't even matter. If it does, I can opt for 0 dBFS input.
 

Blumlein 88

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What is a bigger problem with mic pre-amp? Noise or distortion? Seems to be the former to me. If so, then we can just measure the signal to noise ratio:

View attachment 38580

This is with 1 millivolt. Here, the gain doesn't even matter. If it does, I can opt for 0 dBFS input.
Gain does matter. You probably are right at 1 mv or 2 mv which is about right for dynamics and ribbons. You'll mostly see a high 60ish to 70 db SNR. Condensors are 20-25 db higher in level. So 10 to 20 mv.

Good mic pres have around 100 db SNR with some gain, but not too much gain. Try the 20 mv number on the Motu. At low gain the noise floor is rather high. At high gain you are amping upstream noise too much. In the middle is your best result. One of the reasons I've been saying recordings with more than 70 db dynamic range don't seem to exist or certainly are extreme, extreme rarities.
 

Blumlein 88

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LTig

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What if we insert an old MacKie 1402 VLZ as a Preamp (Mic input, max gain, to insert out) ?

We see that the MacKie, beside its venerable age (1998!), is still going strong:
That's 74dB SINAD, or 13dB SINAD improvement
Again, the ADC is obviously the limiting factor at such low levels.
(If you don't average the 2 inputs, you get around 71dB SINAD)
Nice to see. If I turn around I see the exactly the same model, a Mackie 1402 VLZ PRO.
And how does perform a true professional Preamp interface ?
Here one of the most used worldwide, Yamaha AD8HR, at max gain.
(There is a pretty good chance that the live CD you're listening to was recorded using those.)

The AD8HR includes its own ADC, so that's what we use as input.

SINAD is going down to 65dB.
That's an old interface now (2004?), so the ADC is not to today's standards.
But, still, beside this figure, this is a pretty good interface.
Remember, we are at 1mV.
Looks as if the Mackie with the RME is better than the "professional" Yamaha.
 

AnalogSteph

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For mic measurements you want to be using an external passive attenuator, I think (e.g. double L with 1 kOhm / 10 ohms or similar; increase to 3k3/10R or 10k/10R if needed). Cleanly generating signals as low as 1 mV may be a bit of a stretch even for an AP system. Avoiding the Pin 1 Problem also tends to be rather low on the list of priorities for a pure mic input (it should be less so for a mic/line in but that is not always the case), so a ground lift (shield disconnect) facility towards the input of the attenuator may be a handy feature as well.

Good mic inputs should be posting "shorted" noise levels in the vicinity of -133 to -130.5 dBu @20 kHz, that's 75 to 72.5 dB SNR re: 1 mV. (My own estimates have been -131.5 dBu for a Mackie 402 VLZ4 and -126 dBu for a Behringer Q1002USB.) We're really entering diminishing returns territory beyond that, as a 150 ohm resistor alone generates about -131 dBu of thermal noise at room temperature. You can push shorted EIN to -135 or -138 dBu if you really insist (which I think is roughly where the best ones are... maybe -139 dBu), but it's a lot of effort for 1-2 dB (tops) less noise.
microphone distortions are far more higher than -110dB, super super high
That'll depend quite heavily on the type of microphone and sound level.

Plain vanilla electret capsules tend to be quite crummy, alright - it is not unusual to be seeing H2 50 dB down at 80-90 dB SPL, negatively impacting speaker distortion measurements. There are ways of linearizing them, however.

Now let's say we've got a P48 fed large diaphragm condenser mic spec'd at max 132 dB SPL @ 1% THD, -34 dBV / 1 Pa of output and noise of 18 dB(A) SPL equivalent. (Nothing special really, sub-$100 China mic performance.) The electronics usually are a single-ended affair with dominant 2nd harmonic, which allows estimating (worst-case) distortion performance by extrapolation. -40 dB @ 132 dB SPL means -60 dB at 112 dB SPL, -80 dB at 92 dB SPL, -100 dB at 72 dB SPL and -110 dB at 62 dB SPL. At 62 dB SPL, output is @-66 dBV = 0.5 mV. Now of course, at this point we're talking an SNR of 44 dB(A) (so you can turn down preamp gain quite a bit). Distortion would only equal noise around 95 dB SPL, @ -77 dB.
Now these are values that are likely to still dominate any half-decent preamp, however a great many speakers would be proud to get anywhere near them.

The Microtech Gefell M102 should be similar to what Amir's Klippel measurement rig uses - 136 dB SPL @ 0.5%, -26 dBV/Pa, noise 11 dB(A) SPL. This extrapolates to something like -70 dB at 112 dB SPL, -90 dB at 92 dB SPL and so on. It's probably a combination of smaller capsule and better-performing electronics.

Dynamic microphones have been known to sustain at least 150 dB SPL, limited by excursion around resonance - numbers elsewhere in the frequency spectrum are even higher. It is unclear to me what kind of distortion figures would be associated with levels like this, but even if it's 3 or 10% we'd still be talking something roughly on par with condenser mics.
 

Kouioui

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Nice to see. If I turn around I see the exactly the same model, a Mackie 1402 VLZ PRO. Looks as if the Mackie with the RME is better than the "professional" Yamaha.
Same mixer I use here. Not much can beat it given its age and price on the used market.
 

AllanDavidson

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The new (and much cheaper) M2 / M4 units are now available. I wonder how they perform compared to this one.
 
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Is it possible to use the Motu 624 for a 2.1 system (as a soundcard/DAC)?

I would like to build my own streamer but struggle to find a good 2.1 DAC. I was thinking to use the Motu and 3 of its outputs for the speakers and sub.

In case it works, would I be able to use the Windows volume control?
 

rvsixer

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I would like to build my own streamer but struggle to find a good 2.1 DAC.
Not sure on the Moto...but I struggled finding same solution and thinking of going miniDSP nanoDIGI + two stereo DAC's (allows proper sub(s) integration, room correction via REW filters).
Just food for thought, now back to regularly scheduled thread ;).
 

tamtam

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Hello everyone, by reading these tests I'm quite confused about the recommendation given in the end of the test.
I see this interface with a lot of connections and features and doesn't have a recommendation,
but the Babyface Pro FS which costs more and doesn't even have half of the connection and also has even worse converters - is recommended.
Also, not clear to me the comparison of this device to the Lynx Hilo which costs three/four times more than this,
why not compare this interface to something like the Focusrite Clarett/Presonus Quantum which is in the same ballpark of the mid-range pro audio interfaces. I mean in the pro audio interface market the Lynx Hilo is a top level mastering grade interface, there are also a top-range interfaces in between. Comparing this Motu to Hilo is like comparing Toyota to a Bentley.
I'm not a specialist by any mean in reading these tests, but I would like to hear some clarification about this, thanks!
 

Blumlein 88

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Hello everyone, by reading these tests I'm quite confused about the recommendation given in the end of the test.
I see this interface with a lot of connections and features and doesn't have a recommendation,
but the Babyface Pro FS which costs more and doesn't even have half of the connection and also has even worse converters - is recommended.
Also, not clear to me the comparison of this device to the Lynx Hilo which costs three/four times more than this,
why not compare this interface to something like the Focusrite Clarett/Presonus Quantum which is in the same ballpark of the mid-range pro audio interfaces. I mean in the pro audio interface market the Lynx Hilo is a top level mastering grade interface, there are also a top-range interfaces in between. Comparing this Motu to Hilo is like comparing Toyota to a Bentley.
I'm not a specialist by any mean in reading these tests, but I would like to hear some clarification about this, thanks!
I agree with you, and started to post something about it when the Babyface was given such a hardy recommendation.

The 624 as a DAC smokes the Babyface completely. The ADC is virtually identical in both. With only two more expensive ADCs being better of those tested thus far.

I suppose Amir was making allowances for the Babyface being portable and bus powered. OTOH, if that isn't your use case the performance of the 624 equals or betters the Babyface, as you said has tons more connectivity and versatility while being cheaper. To me the conditional neither nay or yeah recommendation made no sense unless you get the same lukewarm opinion about the Babyface saying it is pretty good if being bus powered is a big deal.

So what about it @Amir why were you so much more enthusiastic about the Babyface vs the 624? Not being critical just wanting more insight into why one was received so much better than the other.
 
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tamtam

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I guess this is the quality of the product and stable results, RME known as a long lasting and high quality,
but for the price point there aren't many interfaces as good as the Motu.
If Motu was making something like the RME Babyface, I bet it would cost half of the price of it.
When the new Babyface came out,
I expected to see a huge improvement in DAC performance as other companies do,
but they only improved the clock, and the performance of the DAC is comparable to ten years old interfaces.
 
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AllanDavidson

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This is the reason I'm still waiting for the "official" review of both M2 and M4 units from @amirm , as he said in another thread he have a MOTU unit for review.

They have a really aggressive price ($159 and $209), and have the same ES9016 Sabre DAC as this unit (and probably the same ADC aswell).
 
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