Most smoothed frequency response ever? Ex Machina Quasar MKII

[dasdoing]

Eh, a different breed of speaker altogether... meant for PA installations with difficult acoustics in mind. I know it's kind of insane, but this coax speaker design piques my interest quite a bit more.

I am still waiting for you to buy a Fulcrum A and send it to Amir before lol

 

[Balle Clorin]

To me It's pretty obvious Exmachina is using FIR tuning, to a spot.
And as YSC and voodooless point out, the graphs are the same for different models.
I also noticed the low freq cutoff is claimed -6dB @ 23 Hz. I'd make it more like 28Hz going by their graph.

So it seems to me they are using FIR tuning to a spot make it look extra good, and then marketing bias to make it look extra, extra, good.

All that said, doesn't mean it's not a good speaker imo.
Just means we need better info, model specific haha, polars, and smoothing disclosure.
And hey, how about measurements when the speaker is not on FIR...the ones with 3ms latency.

Anyway, switching gears...I thought i'd back up my earlier statements that their frequency response and phase graphs don't necessarily mean heavy smoothing.
And that the impulse response could be real.

Got a major version upgrade to Smaart yesterday, and just now tried out it's improved capability with a quick "FIR tune to a spot", on a 4-way main speaker.
Done indoors at about 1m on a synergy, made for 120Hz up.

All graphs below have zero smoothing.

The first shows each of the 4 sections measured acoustic response. I need to say acoustic response because the responses almost look electrical, given how well formed they are. The power of FIR (to a spot)
120Hz high pass on low setion, with xovers then at 300Hz, 700Hz, and 6300Hz. All 16th order linear phase.
View attachment 234314



Second graph is with all sections playing.

View attachment 234315


Third is the impulse response.
View attachment 234318



So i hope that helps show how good 'FIR to a spot' can look....
The question always is, how well does a tune to a spot hold up over polars.

That's the info Exmachina owes customers imho.

Makes me Wonder What speakers you have, custom active DIY?

 

[ernestcarl]

I am still waiting for you to buy a Fulcrum A and send it to Amir before lol

Well, there is one RX699 floating on ebay right now that’s pretty cheap — I still think it’s too big as a replacement to my dinky little Fostex 6301 — no DSP amp though as that needs to be bought separately. But, I personally think a CCX65 or 95 would probably be the more interesting models to actually have measured independently on a Klippel NFS. And for a more real world example, I would like to see how it measures when backed into corner walls etc as opposed to a regular non-cardiod design.

I remembered this in-room FR recently:

practical "problem" example:

*Ignore the green trace (not my speaker in a different setup)

The first trace looks chewed up pretty bad due to SBIR from corner rear wall placement... Now, I expect speakers with more controlled directivity below 500Hz to produce, at the very least, better results.

 

[gnarly]

Makes me Wonder What speakers you have, custom active DIY?

Yep,......custom active DIY. For the few years, I've been into Synergy main speakers, for use use over subs.
Here's a few prior builds for examples.. Currently working on a little smaller version that's easier to move around (that i used for the overkill FIR example in #20)

 

[Arc Acoustics]

The horizontal directivity is way nastier than well-designed waveguided monitors and even coaxial monitors.
Below 8kHz, mainly because of the primitive baffle design.
Above 8kHz, mainly because the driver is simply not that good.
You know that and that is okay, it just happens.
But despite +-2.5dB of peak/dips on just 10 degrees off-axis, claiming this loudspeaker "Most smoothed frequency response" just because equalized perfectly on "reference angle" sounds pathetic.

 

[voodooless]

Well, it’s official, they lied:

Ex Machina Pulsar MKII 3-way 8-inch Active Studio Monitor Review

Ex Machina Pulsar MKII Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[Arc Acoustics]

Well, I thought this would be just an ordinary poorly designed coaxial loudspeaker, but things look rather worse.

 

[heflys20]

I was kinda shocked to see those measurements. Ridiculous considering the price point and the incorporation of strong DSP.

 

[ernestcarl]

From their website:

CROSSOVERS
200hz Sub/Mid, digital 8th order, phase corrected
2khz Mid/Tweet, digital 8th order, phase corrected


It kind of overall looks fine to me other than the unexpected nonlinearity in the bass -- how on earth did they come up with their DSP EQ in that bass driver (stuff below the 200Hz xo, I mean).

From what I previously read, the DSP can be changed to low latency mode. It would have been interesting to see the difference in the time response (phase and/or GD and step) between these modes.

At this level or price range, Genelec ones with their configurable GLM makes more practical sense to me, personally. Hmmn... since at any rate, you'd still likely want to EQ the speakers in-room anyway...

 

[DevinCortno]

Not bad for a start-up company getting into the coaxial game, I guess?

With such powerful DSP, in theory they will be able to take all of this and push out an update to EQ everything as perfectly flat as the OP showed. Maybe they had the EQ from OP running on this new speaker, and sample-to-sample variance on the drivers created the jagged response.

Very challenging position to be in... patent issues, very expensive drivers, lots of R&D cost to amortize on each sale, but not enough performance to choose one of these over the comparable Genelecs so I expect sales won't be all that fantastic. Hopefully they can stay afloat long enough to iron out all the quirks.

 

[heflys20]

This is the 2nd version, too. Makes one wonder...Like others have stated, at this price with that performance, this product is a hard sell; particularly with cheaper options from more established companies that perform better.

 

[Ejsongs]

Hi all,

I’ve been skimming through these post and no one here has any real world experience with these. I actually own a pair and thought I’d chine in.

I loooove my Quasars and they have made a significant difference to my mixes and deliverables. They do exactly what I needed them to do. They give me an accurate picture of what is happening in the low end and enable me to hear details in other mixes that I didn’t not know was there. The sound stage and sweet spot is huge…perfect for clients tha what to bang. The crazy part is that with the dsp, there is no change at any volume level.

The only monitor that I’ve heard that might be a step above would be the barefoot mm26 and that is debatable at best. The reality is the when you get to that level of monitor, everything is in that price range and these are the least expensive if the bunch.

Quite frankly, I’d be scared to deliver a mix without these. Full disclosure I mainly work on pro ac studio 100ls and Ns 10’s but when I need to see how my mix stands up against other mixes and dial in both the high and low end, I have full confidence in these that they are telling me the truth. What more could you ask for?

Ej

 

[ernestcarl]

The crazy part is that with the dsp, there is no change at any volume level.

So how does that happen? Do you mean to say that full-range loudness perception is stable at any volume? That is crazy

 

[Ejsongs]

So how does that happen? Do you mean to say that full-range loudness perception is stable at any volume? That is crazy

I don't know much about the science of it, but I can confirm that to my ears, there is no change regardless of volume level..which is consistent with their claims.

Ej

 

[ernestcarl]

I don't know much about the science of it, but I can confirm that to my ears, there is no change regardless of volume level..which is consistent with their claims.

Ej

I suggest you research more about the equal loudness contours — your claims are quite contrary to the science. What you probably mean to say is the sound from these speakers in your studio is very “clear” at any listening volume.

 

[Digital_Thor]

I have a feeling these speakers are perfectly fine (other my own dislike for the price), so why bother showing measurements in such an exaggerated manner? It only makes it feel like they are overcompensating for other things… And where are the off-axis curves?

Exactly... Cause I recognized that suspension right away.... looks just like my Seas C18 - oh wait.... it IS a version of that driver

My C18 - does just not measure that smooth - on more than one axis at a time. Coax's usually never does...

 

[Jbrunwa]

Good for you ernestcarl, latency is quite telling when it comes to understanding 'good looking' response curves.
(46ms leads me to believe they're using 4k taps at 48kHz which is fine for 8th order linear phase crossovers at 200Hz)

fwiw guys, I've found it's not hard at all to get the same near perfect, frequency response (magnitude) and phase response on DIY speakers, as shown for the Exmachinas.
And with that mag and phase response, automatically comes a near perfect impulse and step response (just like as the impulse response shown).

It's not hard to do, even for 5-ways
Trick is active FIR on each way.....and tuning to a spot. (the spot can be either directly on-axis or a bit off-axis, doesn't matter)
Whenever I see such near perfect response curves as the Exmachina's, is obvious what's going on.

Not that that's a bad thing......
In fact, I'd say it's a good thing if response away from the spot holds up well.....(back to ye ole smooth directivity).
Then it's a downright excellent thing !

The Exmachinas look like nicely thought out boxes (although digital in via ethernet would be a good added capability).
And I'd like to see polars below 1000Hz, ......and with a heck of a lot less smoothing (horiz & verts are both on their website ).
Much better still, would be sets of off-axis curves. I'd like to see how well their spot tuning truly holds up.

Pllll

 

[ernestcarl]

My C18 - does just not measure that smooth - on more than one axis at a time. Coax's usually never does...

That is right. I do like the better vertical directivity from coaxes, and think it can be worth the compromise.

…

Judging from the few reviews and testimonials, people who bought the ex machina seem to use it for music production/studio monitoring/mastering.

However you square it, Erin’s measurements does make it clear that this speaker is not “perfect” and can definitely still be improved.

 

[Digital_Thor]

That is right. I do like the better vertical directivity from coaxes, and think it can be worth the compromise.

…

Judging from the few reviews and testimonials, people who bought the ex machina seem to use it for music production/studio monitoring/mastering.

However you square it, Erin’s measurements does make it clear that this speaker is not “perfect” and can definitely still be improved.

They do claim to have made the off-axis better, with the Textreme Vs the Alu/magnesium. But it's a specially made unit, with no official datasheet, like my C18... So who can know for sure

 

[ernestcarl]

They do claim to have made the off-axis better, with the Textreme Vs the Alu/magnesium. But it's a specially made unit, with no official datasheet, like my C18... So who can know for sure

Did you finish a speaker project with those drivers by any chance? Searching for that driver unit here one only finds this:

Seas KingRo4y MK3 Kit

http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=583:seas-kingro4y-mk-iii&catid=66&Itemid=250 Coaxial Driver C18EN002/A Bass Driver L26RO4Y Coaxial Driver Review https://audioxpress.com/article/test-bench-seas-e0060-08-06-6-5-king-coax Bass Driver Review(Not Ro4y, Roy)...

www.audiosciencereview.com

No more detailed on- and off-axis measurements of the finished product, unfortunately — actually there is some on the PDF! But the colors were so faded I could not clearly see… 0, 15, 30, 45, and 60.