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Most linear near field studio monitors?

lowkeyoperations

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Nobody has said that at all. I have done my best to offer an explanation but this is becoming very circular and it is quite late here, so that will be all from me tonight.
Thanks for your help! I guess What im wondering is what measurements would help me know what speakers were more able to show those differences.
 

dfuller

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Yes, but roll off is not immediate is it? It’s not like 1995 hz is reproduced perfectly and 2000hz not at all.

Have you ever heard the effects of an audio compressor on 2 different monitors side by side in a studio? Most studios have more than one pair of speakers, so I doubt it’s a rare occurrence.

Have you ever noticed that one speaker is easier to hear the changes on than the other?

What scientific measurement do you propose describes that? Or do we just deny it exists because we haven’t measured it?
Frequency response (on and off axis), distortion. That's about it.
 

TimVG

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Revealing is always contextual. Monitors that have flat axial regression characteristics, don't feature audible resonances and have controlled dispersion both horizontally and vertically, are basically as transparent as they need to be. There will always be monitors that are not neutral but will emphasise certain frequency bands, and while these may seem more revealing they can only be so in their own specific regard. The best possible translation comes from using neutral monitors, well placed and calibrated in a good room throughout all stages: mixing - mastering and eventually, listening (enjoying) at home. There are an infinite number of ways a speaker can be flawed, but there is only one benchmark for correct.

My advice: learn how to interpret high-quality anechoic loudspeaker measurements and make your shortlist based on this information. Make sure when you evaluate monitors to measure them in-room and correct them in the modal region. Since low-end response has a huge influence on how we experience loudspeakers in rooms, this is important. If you listen in the nearfield a loudspeaker that has excellent vertical dispersion properties is worth looking at since most multiway loudspeakers don't perform very well +/-10° in the vertical axis. Concentric loudspeakers such as Genelec, Geithain and possibly others are quite popular. Amphion due to their low crossover point are also very well integrated vertically as far as traditional multiway loudspeakers go. This may be a factor in their studio approval.
 

lowkeyoperations

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Thanks for the reply.

Whilst “The best possible translation comes from using neutral monitors” makes sense on one hand, it’s also just a belief. Unless there are some studies into that?

For decades, the best way to translate vocals in a mix across a broad range of playback devices was using NS-10s. During that period of time there were many other speakers that were more neutral, but simply not as good at the job.

Another belief is that “the best possible translation comes from monitors that best highlight the problems”.

I personally think somewhere in between works best.

My Amphions are a bit pronounced in the 200-500 hz range and again around the 6-12k range. They are great at being able to eq out muddy sounding mid bass, because they push it forwards a little. Same with any upper end harshness.

Perhaps it’s just lucky that those frequencies can sound particularly bad on cheap speakers, car stereos etc.

I guess that’s why most studios have a few pairs of speakers. Different tools for different jobs. Multiple perspectives etc.
 

audio2920

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So, I've long believed that working on monitors that are a bit too small for the SPL I'm demanding might make me use more compression.

By that I mean, my suspicion is, when operating in the region where peaks are just pushing the speaker in to distortion, the energy from such peaks gets splattered across the frequency spectrum a bit. Thus, dialing in another dB or two of compression makes more audible difference on this monitor than a bigger, more capable one playing at the same level. It sort of tidies the sound up maybe? Of course it's false in the same way uneven FR can be "revealing".

Conversely the "peak" itself is a bit compressed by the smaller speaker anyway, so you'd think the opposite was true. But my gut feeling is the distortion draws your attention to it more than if it's clean, even if it already has "power compression" in pure SPL terms?

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong, I've not lost any sleep over it....
 

TimVG

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Thanks for the reply.

1)Whilst “The best possible translation comes from using neutral monitors” makes sense on one hand, it’s also just a belief. Unless there are some studies into that?

2)For decades, the best way to translate vocals in a mix across a broad range of playback devices was using NS-10s. During that period of time there were many other speakers that were more neutral, but simply not as good at the job.

3) Another belief is that “the best possible translation comes from monitors that best highlight the problems”.


I personally think somewhere in between works best.

My Amphions are a bit pronounced in the 200-500 hz range and again around the 6-12k range. They are great at being able to eq out muddy sounding mid bass, because they push it forwards a little. Same with any upper end harshness.

Perhaps it’s just lucky that those frequencies can sound particularly bad on cheap speakers, car stereos etc.

I guess that’s why most studios have a few pairs of speakers. Different tools for different jobs. Multiple perspectives etc.

1) Well it's quite simple is it not? If the speakers you are working on, and the ones I'm listening to have a similar sound signature, it's quite obvious that I will be hearing something similar to what you are. There's of course more to it than that, but the same variables would apply to any other monitor, with the added downside of them being tonally different.

2) Are you sure though? The NS-10 was popularized as the engineers of the day assumed (wrongfully or not) that it represented (along with the aurotone) the average consumer loudspeaker. At the time, this was perhaps the case, and the goal was to make sure source material didn't sound too offiensive on the average loudspeaker. These days the situation is quite different, and loudspeakers are on average far more neutral and extended than was the case in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Now, if there were truth to the latter part of your statement, recordings would hold up to this day and there would a level of consistency - this is absolutely not the case and personally I don't understand why people are still defending this reasoning.

3) Again, how so? If you would playback a recording on a dozen flawed loudspeakers, you would find new 'problems' to correct each and every time. Monitors superimposing their own problems on recordings is not the way to move forward. If a problem is inaudible on an objectively neutral monitor, there is simply no problem to correct. And while fixing an otherwise harmless issue, more often than not one loses sight of the bigger picture.

If we keep adjusting otherwise good recordings to mask the flaws of bad consumer loudspeakers, no progress can be made. This doen't mean every monitor, even the objectively good ones will sound the same. There's so many other factors in play - so you don't have to worry about your creative freedom. But I think we can agree that the goal is to produce better sounding recordings?
 

lowkeyoperations

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^which speaker is more objectively neutral, my Neumann KH120s or my Amphion One15s?

The music I produce on my One15s sounds good on my One 15s, but sounds even better when playing back on my KH120s.

The music I produce on my KH120s sounds good on my KH120s, but sounds worse (unfinished) on the One15s.

Music I produce on the One15s consistently translates better across the other systems I have to listen on. Dynaudio XD20 and Rogers LS6s in the lounge room, Apple HomePod, Tesla car system, AirPods, HD650s and VSX headphones.

And that’s where I wholeheartedly agree with you. The goal is to make better sounding recordings. Which is why the Amphions are better than the Neumanns for mixing. Because that is what they help me do.
 
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TimVG

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^which speaker is more objectively neutral, my Neumann KH120s or my Amphion One15s?

The music I produce on my One15s sounds good on my One 15s, but sounds even better when playing back on my KH120s.

The music I produce on my KH120s sounds good on my KH120s, but sounds worse (unfinished) on the One15s.

Music I produce on the One15s consistently translates better across the other systems I have to listen on. Dynaudio XD20 and Rogers LS6s in the lounge room, Apple HomePod, Tesla car system, AirPods, HD650s and VSX headphones.

And that’s where I wholeheartedly agree with you. The goal is to make better sounding recordings. Which is why the Amphions are better than the Neumanns for mixing. Because that is what they help me do.
A good question. The Neumann are considered to be very neutral loudspeakers. The Amphions all seem to measure well, although perhaps not as perfect. One thing Amphion does extremely well is vertical drive unit integration - in the nearfield especially this can be a big advantage.

Would you perhaps mind sharing a mix made on both, and refrain from telling which is which? I'd like to believe I have a good (neutral) system which is well calibrated, and I'd be interested in a comparison. Could be useful for you as well :) Send me a PM if you're interested.
 

lowkeyoperations

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General feedback received…
Mixes done by me on the One15s translate better than one’s done on the KH120s in this case.
 
OP
S

spankjam

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Are you making fun of my nose?

Hey there, @spankjam,
I am guessing your next question may just be "What happens when I put this ruler flat linearity inside of my otherwise non-linear room?"
Am I close?;)
Not really, I know my rooms well and used to work in a close to linear as much as possible room for a long time and am usually a nearfield guy, so I won't be cranking them to a point where they take much resonance of the room with.

I think most people here sit pretty far away from their speakers and like to be drenched in sound but coming from a studio environment, you'll need to pin point things in the stereo image and get a fetchable feeling for transients which you'll only get in a nearfield environment.

Working on Barefoots from a distance for example is a wild guessing game.

I don't have any technical questions besides recommendations on products don't worry
 

dasdoing

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What scientific test is going to be best at determining which speaker reveals compressor changes the best?

I think the question is wrong. the change will be the same, whatever speaker you use.
what you realy want to ask is what meassurement shows how well transients are reproduced.
and the answer is group delay
 

Elkios

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I think the question is wrong. the change will be the same, whatever speaker you use.
what you realy want to ask is what meassurement shows how well transients are reproduced.
and the answer is group delay
You just nailed it not many people talk about this
 

dasdoing

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Very noticeable with drums and bass guitar.

yes. here is a little experiment with an all pass filter that produces about 10ms of group delay in the bass region:

now I don't know how audible this is in a untreated room, but in my treated room the diference is obvious
 

mightycicadalord

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General feedback received…
Mixes done by me on the One15s translate better than one’s done on the KH120s in this case.

Could I hear them? I'm a musician and mix engineer myself. I always had trouble getting things to translate right on the 120's, I wonder if I'll hear the same things here. Transients were damn near impossible to gauge for me.
 

thewas

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