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Most linear near field studio monitors?

lowkeyoperations

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Haven't you ever found yourself unknowingly adjusting a bypassed setting for an extended period of time, all the while being certain that it was producing a significant effect? I certainly have and I know of no audio engineer who hasn't experienced this phenomenon at some point. Consider that if those are only the occasions on which we became aware of it, how much more often must it actually be occurring without our knowledge?

When a perceived quality fails to appear in measurements, the first course of action should be to determine whether it exists independently of the listener at all, rather than simply concluding that the measurements must somehow be incomplete. The human auditory system is very easily steered.
But Still. What scientific test is going to be best at determining which speaker reveals compressor changes the best?

Is it time based measurements?
Is it just Frequency response chart again?

And the big question.
Where is this information?
Is anyone doing this?

Some links would be great!

In the absence of such information, arent our ears the next best thing?
 
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Weeb Labs

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But Still. What scientific test is going to be best at determining which speaker reveals compressor changes the best?

Is it time based measurements?
Is it just Frequency response chart again?

And the big question.
Where is this information?
Is anyone doing this?

Some links would be great!

In the absence of such information, arent our ears the next best thing?
Frequency response and distortion at a given SPL.

It is important to understand that the frequency response of a given speaker is not what you will hear in-room. That is determined to a significant degree by the directivity characteristics of the drivers in conjunction with the modal distribution of the room, which is why room correction is so critical in a studio environment. Unless both pairs of speakers have been room corrected, all bets are off.

As mentioned previously, one should not immediately attribute a characteristic to the speakers which may instead be a product of psychoacoustic steering. In other words, do otherwise similar speakers actually produce audible degrees of difference between compressor changes or is this primarily a result of subconscious steering? Rather than conclude that the measurements at hand are deficient in revealing this quality, we should first determine whether said quality exists independently of the listener.

I completely agree that we should be using our ears to determine preference between the options presented but as explained in my signature, "if your eyes are open, then you are not trusting your ears". No matter who you are or what your level of ear training, sighted comparisons produce clear differences to the listener, whether or not they exist.
 

lowkeyoperations

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So all compressor settings sound the same? LOL. Compressors change the sound in the time domain as well as the frequency.

Just because you don’t have scientific evidence as to whether or not it can be heard on a certain track at a certain setting, doesn’t mean it can’t be heard. It is simply conjecture on your part masquerading as science…

I’m sure that if you have mixed you have heard the audible effects of a compressor. Perhaps it was on extreme settings where it is obvious. And then on less obvious settings the effects are harder to hear. I’m sure that if, like me, you have ever had more than 2 pairs of monitors side by side in a studio, then you will have experienced that different monitors convey those timing changes to differing degrees of clarity.

I’ve had the Neumann KH120’s (a fan favourite on the site here) next to the Amphion One15s for long periods of time as I still own both.

If you went by the consensus on this site, most would say to get the KH120s. but in a real life mixing situation the One15s are a much better tool.

The idea that if you can’t measure it it’s not there, is pretty popular on this board, which I get, because it’s audio science. But that assumes we know what to measure and how to measure it. But I’m not sure that everything you can hear is limited to only frequency response and distortion. Time domain measurements seem pretty important to me, but they don’t seem to get the same level of forensic investigations. I think our ability to measure isn’t quite there yet in describing everything you can hear in speakers.
 
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Weeb Labs

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So all compressor settings sound the same? LOL.
I don't mean to be rude but you appear to be consistently misunderstanding my responses.

At no point have I suggested that all compressor settings sound the same. What I am attempting to question is whether different pairs of speakers with very similar objective characteristics enable differences between compressor settings to be heard with greater or lesser clarity; not whether there are differences between compressor settings.

To suggest that existing measurements are inadequate because they do not reveal this apparent behavior is an implicit non causa pro causa. We must first determine whether the premise is true, before pursuing a wild ornithoid. This requires that we eliminate the sighted component of the comparison.

Regarding time domain measurements, these are far less important than frequency response, directivity and distortion as it pertains to speakers. Not only do we not hear phase shift very well at all but by the time that we perceive a speaker's sound within a room, it is a soup of phase distortions regardless of how perfect it may have been upon departure.
 

lowkeyoperations

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If a speaker has a 5ms delay between the tweeter and the woofer, how well would it audibly describe a change in the attack of a compressor set to 2ms?

Would a speaker with a 1ms delay do that better?? Would a speaker with a 10ms delay between the tweeter and woofer smear that sound, especially if it’s near the crossover point and both drivers are playing back the same frequencies??

Is it purely based on frequency? How can it be when the frequencies from the 2 drivers are hitting your ears at different times? It’s not so much phase, but timing.

I sit with the tweeters approximately 60cm from my ears in extreme Nearfield. Whilst it doesn’t negate the room, it does help minimise it.
 

Weeb Labs

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If a speaker has a 5ms delay between the tweeter and the woofer, how well would it audibly describe a change in the attack of a compressor set to 2ms?

Would a speaker with a 1ms delay do that better?? Would a speaker with a 10ms delay between the tweeter and woofer smear that sound, especially if it’s near the crossover point and both drivers are playing back the same frequencies??

Is it purely based on frequency? How can it be when the frequencies from the 2 drivers are hitting your ears at different times? It’s not so much phase, but timing.

I sit with the tweeters approximately 60cm from my ears in extreme Nearfield. Whilst it doesn’t negate the room, it does help minimise it.
In order for a 5 millisecond delay to exist between a midbass and a tweeter, one of the drivers would need to be placed 1.7 metres further away from the listener than the other. This is not a remotely realistic scenario, as drivers are typically placed such that there exists less than a ½λ distance between their respective acoustic centres at the crossover point.

It is also quite irrelevant to the matter of room-induced phase distortions, which affect both the midbass and tweeter relatively equally. Phase and timing are synonymous. A time delay of 5 milliseconds at 1KHz corresponds to a phase shift of 1,800 degrees.

Below the transition frequency, nearfield listening can do little to improve the modal characteristics of your room. Below is a nearfield measurement performed at my desk, with and without correction.

1634521155759.png
 
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lowkeyoperations

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A woofer with greater mass reacts just as fast as a tweeter? And then every woofer in one monitor reacts just as fast as every other woofer in another model? And none of those differences are audible?
 

Weeb Labs

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A woofer with greater mass reacts just as fast as a tweeter? And then every woofer in one monitor reacts just as fast as every other woofer in another model? And none of those differences are audible?
They are certainly audible but not in the manner that you seem to imply. It is precisely the "slower" response of the midbass cone which results in its rolloff and rising distortion at high frequencies. You appear to be operating under the misconception that impulse response and frequency response are independent characteristics when in reality, they are simply different modes of plotting the transfer function.
 
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lowkeyoperations

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So would a slower woofer be as good as a faster woofer at making differences between compressor attack settings evident?
 

Weeb Labs

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So would a slower woofer be as good as a faster woofer at making differences between compressor attack settings evident?
A slower woofer would roll off sooner, which would necessitate a lower crossover point. Otherwise, no.
 

lowkeyoperations

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And a slow woofer will take longer to react to a transient at 2k than a faster tweeter presumably, given its mass and roll off point?

Are you a mix engineer by any chance?
 

Weeb Labs

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And a slow woofer will take longer to react to a transient at 2k than a faster tweeter presumably, given its mass and roll off point?

Are you a mix engineer by any chance?
I'm afraid that you might be missing what I am attempting to communicate, here. The rolloff itself is the direct result of the more massive cone's reduced transient response. They are not independent characteristics. You can not have a slow transient response without a corresponding rolloff. That is what slowing down the transient response does. If the woofer can not respond to a transient at 2KHz, then it can not reproduce 2KHz.

I am an electronics engineer; not a mix engineer. I do have some experience in audio engineering, however.
 

dfuller

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And a slow woofer will take longer to react to a transient at 2k than a faster tweeter presumably, given its mass and roll off point?
Mixer to mixer, this is a really common misconception. We already are reducing the transient response of a woofer by introducing a low pass filter - because frequency response and time domain response are inverse of one of another.
 

lowkeyoperations

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Yes, but roll off is not immediate is it? It’s not like 1995 hz is reproduced perfectly and 2000hz not at all.

Have you ever heard the effects of an audio compressor on 2 different monitors side by side in a studio? Most studios have more than one pair of speakers, so I doubt it’s a rare occurrence.

Have you ever noticed that one speaker is easier to hear the changes on than the other?

What scientific measurement do you propose describes that? Or do we just deny it exists because we haven’t measured it?
 

Weeb Labs

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Yes, but roll off is not immediate is it? It’s not like 1995 hz is reproduced perfectly and 2000hz not at all.

Have you ever heard the effects of an audio compressor on 2 different monitors side by side in a studio? Most studios have more than one pair of speakers, so I doubt it’s a rare occurrence.

Have you ever noticed that one speaker is easier to hear the changes on than the other?

What scientific measurement do you propose describes that? Or do we just deny it exists because we haven’t measured it?
Roll off occurs gradually, as the effect of the cone's additional moving mass becomes greater as the frequency increases.

I have already provided detailed answers to your other questions, along with a detailed explanation as to why your reasoning in this matter is backwards.
 
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lowkeyoperations

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Exactly. The effect of the woofers mass becomes greater as the frequency increases. And that’s audible right?

So perhaps it is the Amphions low crossover point that helps?
Perhaps the woofer in the KH120s extends further where this becomes audible.
 

Weeb Labs

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Exactly. The effect of the woofers mass becomes greater as the frequency increases. And that’s audible right?
The totality of the effect of the woofer's greater moving mass is the roll off (and subsequent distortion).
 

Inner Space

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Have you ever noticed that one speaker is easier to hear the changes on than the other?

What scientific measurement do you propose describes that? Or do we just deny it exists because we haven’t measured it?

Please. Clarity is endlessly discussed, routinely measured, and frequently achieved. I get that you feel compressors are uniquely challenging. But they aren't, really. I once did an album with an insecure singer who couldn't perform without her dog being there. The label wouldn't accept any takes with snuffling, harrumphing, or toenails on the floor. That required plenty of "easier to hear", believe me, more so than compressors.
 

lowkeyoperations

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^finally. So what measurement should I be looking for, that describes the different level of clarity between the two pairs of studio monitors sitting in front of me?

And what measurement will tell me if it’s worth spending more on a pair of geithans?

Or will I still need to audition them to know?
 
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Weeb Labs

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So you simply say there is no difference between speakers at making the details of compressor settings audible?
Nobody has said that at all. I have done my best to offer an explanation but this is becoming very circular and it is quite late here, so that will be all from me tonight.
 
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