Most affordable reference quality 2-channel system that would last awhile?

[TurtlePaul]

Fwiw, these are Revel's own spinoramas of the F206 and 208...

I forgot how much better the F208 was on-axis. For my ideal for the best price system, I would stay with the F208, subs or no subs.

 

[Chromatischism]

That is an interesting point. Near the original price, would it be better to have the F208 or have the F206 with dual (stereo?) subs? I don't know. I imagine the F208 has less distortion from 80-150 hz, which would be nice (F208 is ~1% distortion at 80 hz in Amir's test @ >90 dB). However, the subs let you take that octave from 30 hz - 60 hz out of the hands of the mains. Are there Klipple spins and distortion tests of the F206?

Part of the difference would be that the F208 starts being somewhat directional below 200 hz, while the F206 is probably omnidirectional up higher. I don't know that this would matter as much in a systems which I outlined with equalization "fixing" the mid-bass transition zone.

Of course, the subs also give you lower bass, perhaps even into the teens. With most material that doesn't mean anything, but when a piece asks for sub 30 hz, you will certainly know if you have subs or not.

If I can't have subs with the F208's, I will take the F206 + subs all day any day of the week. It won't be a fair comparison.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I already own a d30pro + boxem nc252 and am seriously considering the kef r3. I feel my problem with this is that if i ever want to add subs i will have to either run the r3 full frequency or change the d30pro, and i would prefer to avoid that...
What do you guys think about the r3 without subs or r3 w subs but running full frequency? Are any of them viable options at least until something like the minidsp flex is available at a reasonable price in eu?
Ps: sorry for the appropriation of the thread

I think if your replaced the D30 Pro with the miniDSP Flex you could buy the R3's and have something you could keep and add subs to at a later date. Probably only cost $300 to move on form the D30 Pro to the Flex. Would also make an excellent high end entry level system for ADU and would give him an option to upgrade with subs (though the R3's are full range enough that most people who haven't heard 'Sub bass' might not feel anything is missing).

 

[MCH]

I think if your replaced the D30 Pro with the miniDSP Flex you could buy the R3's and have something you could keep and add subs to at a later date. Probably only cost $300 to move on form the D30 Pro to the Flex. Would also make an excellent high end entry level system for ADU and would give him an option to upgrade with subs (though the R3's are full range enough that most people who haven't heard 'Sub bass' might not feel anything is missing).

Yeah, kef r3 are reaching a price point in EU (down to aprox 1300 if in offer) that is difficult not to consider them when building a new system. Together with the flex with dirac and a sub seems like a killer stereo setup according to what one can read here.
However at this point in time, unless you are willing to buy overseas, the flex costs in europe around 1100 euros with dirac, that for me is way too expensive for 4 channel dsp without amplification. That's why i think i am going to have to listen to the r3 for a while without subs until things settle a bit with the flex, or something different is released... and hence my questions

 

[Rja4000]

This request is too vague: you need to define what you consider as "without compromise"
(There is no such thing in reality)

As for me, here is a system that works:
I use my Samsung Note 9 or a laptop as a source, streaming Qobuz.
I go through an RME ADI-2 Pro fs R (of course, you'd get exactly the same from the cheaper RME ADI-2 DAC) and I play either with Focal Elegia headphones or a pair of (second hand) Genelec 1032A.
If you count how much I paid for the whole, including headphones and speakers, decreased to consider the lower price of the DAC, that's around 3000€ (not counting the smartphone and laptop, of course).

For best results on loudspeakers, you may want to add a Dirac license and a measurement microphone, but for the license, I think you can do without with patient measurements and manual tuning.

That's not a perfect system, by any sense.
But pretty close.

 

[jae]

Speaker Data (beta) - Google Drive

docs.google.com

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

Neumann KH80, Genelec 8030C etc. - Looking at $700-1500 brand new. Since these are active you don't have to worry about other components. Add a good rated sub or two if you can afford it for low frequency extension. You can find some of the older Infinity, JBL, KEF, even Genelec speakers that measure well in the used market for a good price if you are patient. I would say only consider speakers above 5.7 on that list and ideally you want ones scoring 6.0+. The price comparison charts on the spreadsheet are good to put price to performance in perspective, although you'll still need to know how to interpret the score and measurements and pick what is most appropriate for your setup.

Buy a measurement microphone for $80 so you can diagnose issues with the system/room.

For headphones I would say options like HD6XX ($200), Dan Clark Audio ($500+), Etymotic ER2SE/XR ($50-80, iem), maybe HE4XX ($180). All these will require EQ if you want 'reference' but are capable and generally still sound good without it. Topping EX5 for combo amp/dac that will handle virtually anything you can throw at it $350 if you want a nice unit but there are cheaper options out there as cheap as a $10 usb dongle going directly into active speakers or your headphone.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

No clue if it fits the "reference" criteria (whatever that is supposed to be) but my system, described in my signature is pretty much a low-cost "natural sound" (to my ears anyway) setup.

Do keep in mind, that I would not recommend it for large rooms. There you need more powerful amplification and speakers tolerant of high SPL.

 

[Enkay25]

Please use the index/database of the DACs/Aamps/AVRs/Headphone/Speakers.

Using the SINAD score or Preference scor, correlating with the budget, you can built up your components.

One can always do a sorting of the index from low price-high price.

Please use the search functions/go the index database for the needful. Make a list and then ask the members opinion.

 

[ADU]

No clue if it fits the "reference" criteria (whatever that is supposed to be) but my system, described in my signature is pretty much a low-cost "natural sound" (to my ears anyway) setup.

Do keep in mind, that I would not recommend it for large rooms. There you need more powerful amplification and speakers tolerant of high SPL.

Thank you for the input, Aerith.

Although I've already given a few basic ideas on what I think reference quality could mean in this context, I'll try to expand a bit further on that, for both speakers and headphones, and some other gear. This is still a subject that I'm learning though. And I'm interested in hearing others' opinions on it as well, via both their selection of components, and also how they might read or interpret the measurements on their gear. So this is a topic which is open for some discussion here.

I think Enkay25 and jae also have some good points about the indexes. I think there are some questions about the reliability of SINAD/THD scores from a perceptual standpoint though, especially as it might relate to equipment near the lower end of the price scale. And it seems that there is still some debate and research ongoing into this subject. I'd agree that the indexes can be useful tools for narrowing down your searches based on certain parameters though.

There are other sites or systems for indexing and comparing the responses of headphones, for example. But I have not always found them to be reliable or consistent with one another, or my own experiences. Or as useful for assessing things like the quality/durability of a device's construction, or internal components.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I think there are some questions about the reliability of SINAD/THD scores from a perceptual standpoint though

I'll be frank, and I know that I will get FLAK for this:
They are both fairly irrelevant from a perception PoV.

These measurements are done to see the properties of the gear and weed out engineering duds. Especially hilariously overpriced duds, that perform no better than affordable gear. Amir-senpai has done us a great service in that regard. Also, you can look at the measurements if you know that you have extreme cases like a very quiet, specialized room and super high SPL. Then some of the measurements can be actually relevant. For the average user, a SINAD of 90dB, which is what most standard components measure (e.g.: most AVRs), is more than sufficient and will not encroach into the audible domain.

People that fuss about these lists either use the devices in extreme conditions or are basically falling for the "bigger numbers (or rather smaller ones in this case) = better hype.

Important metrics are: output impedance, for signal integrity and amplification behavior, especially if you intend to drive notoriously difficult speakers.

If anything, this forum has told me that electronics matter very little and that there are nicely priced components that do a fantastic job of not getting in the way.

Which is btw, how I describe reference: transparency. Or in the case of transducers: as close as humanly possible. After all, our main goal should be to listen to the artists vision of the musical piece in question, not necessarily our own interpretation of it. Even though the latter might be fun from time to time as well Which why DSP capabilities are friggin awesome. So much control!

 

[Chromatischism]

I believe that has already been litigated in other threads, right?

 

[ADU]

I believe that has already been litigated in other threads, right?

It may have been, Chromatischism. However, since I've asked for other's opinions re what a reference response is, I think its fair game for folks to respond to that, and offer some of their views and ideas on this, within the context of this thread as well. Even if it's already been discussed elsewhere.

There's obviously already alot of good science on these subjects which is out there and available for almost anyone to read and peruse, by Floyd Toole, and many others. But there are certainly aspects of this information which are still very much open to debate/interpretation, and the subject of continuing research. (And distortion would certainly be one characteristic that falls into that category imho.)

If you have any links to other info or discussions that would be helpful to me or the other members though on this, then you're certainly welcome to post them here. And I'd be glad if you'd do so.

 

[sdiver68]

I forgot how much better the F208 was on-axis. For my ideal for the best price system, I would stay with the F208, subs or no subs.

I suspect those spins represent production variance and selective marketing more than anything.

Same tweeter, same mid, same basic cabinet design.

Given what we've seen from in room measurements of multiple Revel up and down the line the difference is simply bass extension, for which a sub or 2 will easily compensate.