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More speakers, less watts?

Soundmixer

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I thought surround peaks were 20dB for over 20 years until I saw a YT video recently in which the head of soundtrack mixing from Sony pictures stated that they're capped at 17dB. Surprised at this statement I dug a bit deeper and found Netflix's mixing standard is channel peaks be limited to no higher than 17.7dB (and that's from a 79dB-82dB baseline, not 85dB - so max peak of 99.7dB). I then found Dolby's Atmos Mixing Studio Certification guide (available online), which in effect specifies a gold standard for an Atmos playback system, and it states that front channels must be 20dB peak capable and surrounds 17dB peak capable.

You are conflating mixing and mastering standards with system capability. They are separate things. Netflix does not set the standard for the industry, SMPTE does. Dolby Digital right out of the box always had the capacity for 20dbs headroom in the mains and 30dbs for the LFE. What the industry or individual studio does after that is just that, what they do.

The Dolby Atmos Mixing certification does recommend a CALIBRATION of the mains so they are capable of 105db peaks and the surrounds 99dbs peaks. This is a calibration setting, not the limitation of the system itself.
 
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Soundmixer

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Based upon this study and this one, a singular subwoofer in a typical room does not become localizable until the crossover frequency reaches approximately 100-120Hz, with minimal directional cues below 200Hz.

There have been other studies that have put that number closer to 80-100hz where localization was detected. From experience and having participated in a listening test for subwoofer localization done by Tomlinson Holman, I would never use a crossover that is higher than 80hz.
 

sigbergaudio

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This statement is nothing more than a two-channel mentality being applied to surround. All setups have compromises, you have to choose where to make them. Skimping on amp power for the surrounds and heights is IMO an unacceptable compromise. One of my immersive setups has the same speakers all the way around (except up top), and there were no compromises made - it was designed for mixed-use right from the start. If you are trying to shoehorn surround into a two-channel system, then all kinds of compromises are already made. If you know from the start your system will be mix-use, then you choose the best speakers all the way around that scale well to the room.





Sorry, but this is incorrect. Unless the subwoofer is sitting directly under the main speaker, any crossover setting above 80hz will cause the sub to localize. The quality does not matter, the placement does not matter, the frequency does. Even if you place a sub in a corner, it will localize above 80hz. Test after test has shown 80hz as being the threshold of localization.

No, 80hz was chosen as the recommended frequency because it's the lowest common demoninator, even with a crappy sub in a poor location, you usually won't be able to localize it.

In many situations you can get away with (and get better results) far higher.
 

Soundmixer

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No, 80hz was chosen as the recommended frequency because it's the lowest common demoninator, even with a crappy sub in a poor location, you usually won't be able to localize it.

Actually, you are incorrect again! 80hz was chosen as a result of bass localization listening tests conducted by both SMPTE and THX.

In many situations you can get away with (and get better results) far higher.

And the sub will localize if you go higher. There is a gulfs difference between "getting away with" and "optimal" results. Any setting will allow you to get away with something, but you get optimal by sticking with what is a well-known optimization frequency.
 

sigbergaudio

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Actually, you are incorrect again! 80hz was chosen as a result of bass localization listening tests conducted by both SMPTE and THX.

Yes, and based on those tests they felt confident that if people chose 80hz, they wouldn't be likely to localize their subs no matter the setup, aka the same thing I just said.

Other and higher frequencies will be more optimal in many circumstances.
 

Soundmixer

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Yes, and based on those tests they felt confident that if people chose 80hz, they wouldn't be likely to localize their subs no matter the setup, aka the same thing I just said.

And then you contradicted your own self by saying you can get away with something higher. I agree with the 80hz setting, I don't agree with anything higher than that.
 

sigbergaudio

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And then you contradicted your own self by saying you can get away with something higher. I agree with the 80hz setting, I don't agree with anything higher than that.

English is not my first language, so I apologize if my choice of words are confusing. With "get away with" I meant that it could be chosen without localisation issues. As such there is no contradiction here.

I'm not sure why you assume I know nothing on this subject, and I'm also not sure why you're confident that you have nothing left to learn.
 

Weeb Labs

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Actually, you are incorrect again! 80hz was chosen as a result of bass localization listening tests conducted by both SMPTE and THX.



And the sub will localize if you go higher. There is a gulfs difference between "getting away with" and "optimal" results. Any setting will allow you to get away with something, but you get optimal by sticking with what is a well-known optimization frequency.

I agree with the 80hz setting, I don't agree with anything higher than that.
80Hz was selected as the THX standard not because it is the ideal crossover frequency for all environments but because it is in the middle of the ideal range and therefore unlikely to be problematic within most configurations. For you to suggest that no higher crossover frequency should ever be used regardless of the characteristics of any given configuration is simply dogmatic.
 

Soundmixer

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80Hz was selected as the THX standard not because it is the ideal crossover frequency for all environments but because it is in the middle of the ideal range and therefore unlikely to be problematic within most configurations.

Wow, I never knew that a subwoofer crossover point was established by the environment, and not by the best integration between most bookshelf speakers and a properly placed sub and when the sub becomes unlocalizable. Then why have a standard at all if all environments are different? Your explanation means we have to establish our own crossover point and ditch the 80hz standard that all mixing and mastering stages use. I personally am not going that route, and I don't recommend anyone else do that either.



For you to suggest that no higher crossover frequency should ever be used regardless of the characteristics of any given configuration is simply dogmatic.

Wait, I did say this....

"Unless the subwoofer is sitting directly under the main speaker, any crossover setting above 80hz will cause the sub to localize. "


You might try reading EVERYTHING I posted before responding.
 

Weeb Labs

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Wow, I never knew that a subwoofer crossover point was established by the environment, and not by the best integration between most bookshelf speakers and a properly placed sub and when the sub becomes unlocalizable. Then why have a standard at all if all environments are different? Your explanation means we have to establish our own crossover point and ditch the 80hz standard that all mixing and mastering stages use. I personally am not going that route, and I don't recommend anyone else do that either.





Wait, I did say this....

"Unless the subwoofer is sitting directly under the main speaker, any crossover setting above 80hz will cause the sub to localize. "


You might try reading EVERYTHING I posted before responding.
I don't appreciate your rudeness and will not carry on a discussion with somebody who behaves in this manner.
 

Soundmixer

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I don't appreciate your rudeness and will not carry on a discussion with somebody who behaves in this manner.

I guess I am rude because you don't like the answer. That's okay, thin skin folks often don't like an answer that doesn't agree with theirs, and they take their ball and jacks and leave as a result.
 

Soundmixer

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English is not my first language, so I apologize if my choice of words are confusing. With "get away with" I meant that it could be chosen without localisation issues. As such there is no contradiction here.

If listen tests have concluded that 80hz makes a sub unlocalizable, and above that it increasingly does, then your statement is still incorrect. When you start making your own subjective choices on this, the results will be inconsistent. It may work, and it may not, it is a shot in the dark. I don't like shooting in the dark, you cannot lock in on the target.

I'm not sure why you assume I know nothing on this subject, and I'm also not sure why you're confident that you have nothing left to learn.

I am not assuming anything, I am reading your words. Those words are in direct contradiction to established standards, so whether you know nothing (or even something) is irrelevant based on that.

"I'm also not sure why you're confident that you have nothing left to learn."

Please don't tell me about making assumptions while making this statement. It is hypocrisy on steroids.
 

sigbergaudio

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If listen tests have concluded that 80hz makes a sub unlocalizable, and above that it increasingly does, then your statement is still incorrect. When you start making your own subjective choices on this, the results will be inconsistent. It may work, and it may not, it is a shot in the dark. I don't like shooting in the dark, you cannot lock in on the target.

I am not assuming anything, I am reading your words. Those words are in direct contradiction to established standards, so whether you know nothing (or even something) is irrelevant based on that.

There's no established standard saying that higher crossovers can't work. That one thing is true doesn't necessarily make another thing false. That 80hz is generally not localizeable, doesn't mean 100hz always (or even often) is.

If you don't feel like experimenting with anything else, that is fine. But your claim that 80hz is the universal best setting is wrong.
 

Mr Wolf

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The ability to localise sound at deep bass frequencies varies from person to person and, for people with unimpaired hearing, typically sits within the 60-120Hz range. My understanding is that 80Hz was chosen as the standard as it's a level at which the vast majority of people cannot localise bass and is sufficiently high to provide dynamic headroom benefits through using active subwoofers. So while 80Hz might work well for someone, 100Hz or even 120Hz might work equally well for someone else.

It is a fact that subwoofers can work extremely well at crossover settings higher than 80Hz. If you follow Anthony Grimani (who, given his career path, probably knows more about HT than anyone) you'll find that he sometimes even uses them in high end (>$200k) custom HT installations specifically to overcome SBIR issues with the main speakers. His systems all typically use four subwoofers though which eliminates localisation issues. If you understand room acoustics, you would never believe in a universal 80Hz crossover setting. It's simply a starting point that works for many people in their own systems.

Personally I can localise a single subwoofer crossed at 80Hz in my system (even placed at the front), at 60Hz I cannot. I currently use a pair of subwoofers crossed at 80Hz and, even though they're placed in the rear corners behind the listening position, I cannot localise them at all. If I turn one of them off I can.

Also note that the LFE channel's output can be up to 120Hz although usually it's rolled off before then. This is independent of the bass management crossover setting so you ideally don't want a system where 120Hz can be localised. If you can, depending where the sub is I would consider using that LPF for LFE setting.
 
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Mr Wolf

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You are conflating mixing and mastering standards with system capability. They are separate things. Netflix does not set the standard for the industry, SMPTE does. Dolby Digital right out of the box always had the capacity for 20dbs headroom in the mains and 30dbs for the LFE. What the industry or individual studio does after that is just that, what they do.

The Dolby Atmos Mixing certification does recommend a CALIBRATION of the mains so they are capable of 105db peaks and the surrounds 99dbs peaks. This is a calibration setting, not the limitation of the system itself.

I'm not conflating anything, I'm merely stating facts. System capability and mastering standards may be separate but are directly related as obviously there's no point creating a mix that cannot be played back as intended. System capability effectively sets the limits of what can (or at least should) be produced.

I also didn't say Netflix set any industry standards but the fact that they have their own standards indicates that they care deeply about standardising how their material will be reproduced at home or in cinemas. This will no doubt have been influenced by system capability standards.

Your comments relating to calibration vs capability are simply wrong. In Dolby Atmos commercial theatres, it's true that surround speakers must be capable of at least 99dB but these must form part of a speaker array of at least 4 speakers which would make the surround array 105dB capable. This capability would provide the (Dolby recommended) 3dB headroom to cover 17dB peaks on a 85dB mix which, as I said above, is the maximum peaks they should be expected to be subjected to.

Speaking of 17dB surround peaks, this is copied and pasted directly from the Dolby Atmos Home Entertainment Studio Certification Guide (30/1/19).

"Speaker and amplification specification
The suitable sound pressure reference level for a studio will be dependent upon the content type
being produced and precise delivery requirements. Allowable ranges for Dolby Atmos home
entertainment studio certification range from 79 to 85 dBC.


The requirement of the amplifier and speaker equipment is to reproduce the content, as recorded
within the digital workstation, such that it does not add distortion. Each screen speaker shall be
capable of producing 20 dB above reference level, and each surround speaker shall be capable of
producing 17 dB above reference level. The subwoofer is aligned at +10 dB when compared to the
center speaker and should also be capable of producing at least 20 dB above reference level."


This makes perfect sense and is 100% consistent with what Sony Pictures say they are doing in their mixes. Note the phrase "as recorded within the digital workstation" - this means there shouldn't be more than 103dB peaks in the surrounds. If you're choosing to put 20dB surround peaks into your own mixes that's up to you but you are evidently breaching the Dolby guidance.

I don't mean to be rude, but are you actually a professional sound mixer for the movie industry?
 
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Benedium

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I found it kinda 'educational' that the jbl stage a120 can also be crossed over at 80hz despite its small size with its freq resp of 60hz - 40khz. Is it safe to say good brands make speakers to be crossed over at no higher than 80hz?

I also found my subwoofer integrated better with all speakers when I moved it to the side of my sofa instead of along the front wall.
 
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sigbergaudio

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I found it kinda 'educational' that the jbl stage a120 can also be crossed over at 80hz despite its small size. Is it safe to say good brands make speakers to be crossed over at no higher than 80hz?

A loudspeaker like the a120 will given its size obviously benefit from a much higher crossover if possible, this will increase its spl capacity and your overall system headroom.
 

Soundmixer

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There's no established standard saying that higher crossovers can't work.


If it is found that a subwoofer becomes more sonically visible as the crossover frequency is raised beyond 80hz, then there is a standard that says higher crossover can't work. Listening test have proven just that, so this comment is an irrelevant hail mary air sandwich.

That one thing is true doesn't necessarily make another thing false. That 80hz is generally not localizeable, doesn't mean 100hz always (or even often) is.

You are getting twisted into a pretzel with this bit of pretzel logic. Even rubber bands break at this stretch of logic.
 

Soundmixer

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I'm not conflating anything, I'm merely stating facts. System capability and mastering standards may be separate but are directly related as obviously there's no point creating a mix that cannot be played back as intended. System capability effectively sets the limits of what can (or at least should) be produced.

Since you openly admit that system capability and mastering/calibration standards are separate issues, thank you for making my point. You cannot admit one thing and then turn around and again conflate it just to posture. I am not buying that. The system capability was established first, the mastering and calibration fit inside that capability - they don't define it. There are theatrical sound systems that can play louder than 105db down to 40hz (HPS-4000 is one of them) in the mains, and louder than 99db for the surrounds. The standards fit within that system, the system is not defined by the standard.


I also didn't say Netflix set any industry standards but the fact that they have their own standards indicates that they care deeply about standardising how their material will be reproduced at home or in cinemas. This will no doubt have been influenced by system capability standards.

Netflix adopted those standards from SMPTE and THX. These are not their OWN standards. How mixes are handled for home content is very different than what is done for theatrical content. The standard has nothing to do with the system capability, and my example above shows that.


Your comments relating to calibration vs capability are simply wrong. In Dolby Atmos commercial theatres, it's true that surround speakers must be capable of at least 99dB but these must form part of a speaker array of at least 4 speakers which would make the surround array 105dB capable. This capability would provide the (Dolby recommended) 3dB headroom to cover 17dB peaks on a 85dB mix which, as I said above, is the maximum peaks they should be expected to be subjected to.

Now you are contradicting yourself. AGAIN!!!! You openly admitted I was correct when I stated that the calibration levels and system capabilities are different subjects. You did say this;

"System capability and mastering standards may be separate "

How can I be right and wrong at the same time? I can't, and that shows how profoundly you are posturing and twisting to feebly attempt to make your point. Dude, you cannot say something is separate, and then attempt to conflate them together AGAIN!

Speaking of 17dB surround peaks, this is copied and pasted directly from the Dolby Atmos Home Entertainment Studio Certification Guide (30/1/19).

"Speaker and amplification specification
The suitable sound pressure reference level for a studio will be dependent upon the content type
being produced and precise delivery requirements. Allowable ranges for Dolby Atmos home
entertainment studio certification range from 79 to 85 dBC.


The requirement of the amplifier and speaker equipment is to reproduce the content, as recorded
within the digital workstation, such that it does not add distortion. Each screen speaker shall be
capable of producing 20 dB above reference level, and each surround speaker shall be capable of
producing 17 dB above reference level. The subwoofer is aligned at +10 dB when compared to the
center speaker and should also be capable of producing at least 20 dB above reference level."


This makes perfect sense and is 100% consistent with what Sony Pictures say they are doing in their mixes. Note the phrase "as recorded within the digital workstation" - this means there shouldn't be more than 103dB peaks in the surrounds. If you're choosing to put 20dB surround peaks into your own mixes that's up to you but you are evidently breaching the Dolby guidance.

Once again brightness this a calibration thing, not a system thing. Do you know the difference between a doorknob and a door?

I don't mean to be rude, but are you actually a professional sound mixer for the movie industry?

Yes. And as such, I know the difference between a system's capabilities, how it is calibrated, and the recommended mastering levels. They are not the same. Not to be rude, but It is patently clear you are not a professional sound mixer or a professional in anything related to the film industry. Heck, on this subject matter, you cannot tell the difference between your bum and a donut.
 
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