More news on subjective perceptions from the wine indistry

[ahofer]

Via the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

Robert Hodgson is determined to improve the quality of judging. He has developed a test that will determine whether a judge's assessment of a blind-tasted glass in a medal competition is better than chance. The research will be presented at a conference in Cape Town this year. But the early findings are not promising.
"So far I've yet to find someone who passes," he says.

 

[2M2B]

Noticed this in Head Fi/Reddit impressions a lot. If a $199 headphone can rival one at 5x the price, The review Is just them trying way too hard to defend the one at $1000+.

I've got few turning on me when I point this out with ER3XR vs a 4 BA CIEM, Or HE400se vs HD800S. Then again I've seen many 180 by saying get the HD800S used at $499?.

 

[spartaman64]

i was recommended this channel by youtube a few weeks ago and i was impressed by how he can determine so much by just how it tastes. of course it could be the other guy telling him everything beforehand but idk.
also he is not afraid to say bad things about expensive wines or good things about cheap wines

 

[MCH]

A few years ago at a chemistry conference attended a talk about electronic tongues to characterize wines. Maybe soon we will see objectivist/subjectivist debates in the wine forums

Electronic tongue for Cava wine. The interface even looks like an Audio Precision device
(taken from here: https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/electronic-tongue-37045/ )

 

[Blumlein 88]

Hopefully not spreading misinformation thru bad memory. A few years back I was watching a program about how sommeliers are credentialed. The highest credential is very hard to get, and very few pass the test. Somewhere was an article showing details of that. Not only did very few pass the testing for that, but you were allowed to take that test as often as you would pay for it. And most took it multiple times. In the end the passing rate was so few it appeared to me to be random. As in just statistical probability would let someone pass every once and while. Made me wonder if in fact no one passes the test or at least that most who do simply eventually get lucky enough.

There are only a bit more than 200 Master Sommeliers in the entire world.

Fortunately in audio we are blessed with way more than 200 master subjective reviewers. Then again, they don't have to pass a test.

 

[Wes]

There is a tremendous amount of analytical chemistry done by many big Bordeaux houses. It is rarely discussed due to "image."

 

[Wes]

Hopefully not spreading misinformation thru bad memory. A few years back I was watching a program about how sommeliers are credentialed. The highest credential is very hard to get, and very few pass the test. Somewhere was an article showing details of that. Not only did very few pass the testing for that, but you were allowed to take that test as often as you would pay for it. And most took it multiple times. In the end the passing rate was so few it appeared to me to be random. As in just statistical probability would let someone pass every once and while. Made me wonder if in fact no one passes the test or at least that most who do simply eventually get lucky enough.

Master of Wine (?) I knew a woman who was going to try out for it - yes, very hard. There was also a scandal about cheating on it a few years ago.

 

[ahofer]

Hopefully not spreading misinformation thru bad memory. A few years back I was watching a program about how sommeliers are credentialed. The highest credential is very hard to get, and very few pass the test. Somewhere was an article showing details of that. Not only did very few pass the testing for that, but you were allowed to take that test as often as you would pay for it. And most took it multiple times. In the end the passing rate was so few it appeared to me to be random. As in just statistical probability would let someone pass every once and while. Made me wonder if in fact no one passes the test or at least that most who do simply eventually get lucky enough.

I recommend a book called “Cork Dork”, by a journalist who became a sommelier. They do have to pass blind tasting tests, but it seems more about triangulating - identifying a few scents/tastes, colors, consistencies, and using that information to triangulate on the type of wine. What’s interesting in the study above isn’t that they can’t identify what kind of wine it is, but that their preferences were quite volatile from one moment to the next.

 

[ahofer]

There is a tremendous amount of analytical chemistry done by many big Bordeaux houses. It is rarely discussed due to "image."

Yes, and used by larger wineries to create “Frankenwines”. See also how Rudy Kurniawan fooled all those people by mixing more recent wines into old bottles.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I recommend a book called “Cork Dork”, by a journalist who became a sommelier. They do have to pass blind tasting tests, but it seems more about triangulating - identifying a few scents/tastes, colors, consistencies, and using that information to triangulate on the type of wine. What’s interesting in the study above isn’t that they can’t identify what kind of wine it is, but that their preferences were quite volatile from one moment to the next.

Yes, that is what the documentary was about. It is worth remembering even in blind testing every so many times you just randomly "pass" the threshold. Even when you go thru multiple levels of increasing difficulty a very few will simply get lucky more than once.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Master of Wine (?) I knew a woman who was going to try out for it - yes, very hard. There was also a scandal about cheating on it a few years ago.

Yes, I think there are three levels. Master of Wine is either the first or second. The top one is Master Sommelier.

 

[SIY]

In our tasting setups, we used replicates and hidden controls to eliminate data sets from subjects who were unreliable, at least that day. In real analytical tasting, that’s routinely done. Wine competitions are not as rigorous, though I was impressed by the consistency between judges at the Cote-Rotie panels I was on for the yearly Concours du Vin in Ampuis.

 

[PatentLawyer]

I am a rather serious wine collector and do a lot of blind tasting with my tasting group. I am rather good at identifying grape and region, but there's a gent in my group that nails vineyard and vintage with surprising regularity. And when he's wrong, it's understandable (e.g., mistaking one recent warm vintage for another). The comment above about "triangulation" is apt.

The wine industry carries so much about it that is immutably subjective -- including incredibly strong aspects about prestige and tradition -- that whenever the Amir of wine shows up, she/he is going to have a hell of a hard time making waves.

 

[Trell]

There is a tremendous amount of analytical chemistry done by many big Bordeaux houses. It is rarely discussed due to "image."

Like other agricultural products there is much research and product development done at local universities as well, and the results are used by the smaller wineries that cannot afford to do that themselves.

 

[MCH]

Like other agricultural products there is much research and product development done at local universities as well, and the results are used by the smaller wineries that cannot afford to do that themselves.

True
The AP of analytical chemistry come by the hundreds of thousands

 

[StevenEleven]

Via the Guardian:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis

Great stuff, thanks. I had always kind of felt like this was the case but didn’t share my thoughts except with my closest relatives. One of those rare occasions where there is evidence that maybe i’m not crazy. But honestly, I have no worthwhile knowledge on the subject.

I have blurted out my opinion that $20 a bottle wine usually seems pretty good to me, but I’ve learned that such opinions can be misinterpreted in the wrong setting as hostile or abrasive or ignorant rather than modest and honest.

 

[Jimbob54]

A few years ago at a chemistry conference attended a talk about electronic tongues to characterize wines. Maybe soon we will see objectivist/subjectivist debates in the wine forums

View attachment 144543
Electronic tongue for Cava wine. The interface even looks like an Audio Precision device
(taken from here: https://www.decanter.com/wine-news/electronic-tongue-37045/ )

Yes, but we all know drinking wine from a urine sample container makes it tastes like wee, so not a fair test.

 

[Trell]

Yes, but we all know drinking wine from a urine sample container makes it tastes like wee, so not a fair test.

If you are thirsty enough it'll taste just fine

 

[Blumlein 88]

At least the article lets me know my propensity to enjoy cabernet sauvignon with Jimi Hendrix makes sense.

OTOH, that is usually a $6.99 per bottle Barefoot wine. They do claim to be the most awarded wine brand. Have to say I don't like their Malbec.

 

[SIY]

Great stuff, thanks. I had always kind of felt like this was the case but didn’t share my thoughts except with my closest relatives. One of those rare occasions where there is evidence that maybe i’m not crazy. But honestly, I have no worthwhile knowledge on the subject.

I have blurted out my opinion that $20 a bottle wine usually seems pretty good to me, but I’ve learned that such opinions can be misinterpreted in the wrong setting as hostile or abrasive or ignorant rather than modest and honest.

Price is not a quality indicator, it’s a supply demand indicator- there’s a lot of very expensive mediocre Montrachets, for example, because the name is coveted and the supply naturally limited. My favorite Chardonnay-based wine is under $20, if you put aside perfectly stored specimens of ‘83 Ramonet Montrachet. The scourge of premox is a nonlinear factor.