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Moondrop LAN Review

MayaTlab

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Let's see this 'very accurate' comparative data with proper GRAS measurements then. And importantly, for this specific IEM. Here's analysis by AutoEQ's Jaakko Pasanen of the varying response errors of Crinacle's fake clone RA0045 measurements that people blindly trust relative to Oratory's professional measurements using a genuine GRAS RA0045 for many IEMs (which yes, includes unit variation, but that's unlikely to explain all this variance):

index.php

You must think you're clever throwing this graph around but it doesn't show what you hope it shows.

This is the exact same exercise, but this time comparing CSGlinux's database, which uses a GRAS RA0045 coupler, to Oratory's, with the following list of IEMs :
Screenshot 2023-06-01 at 08.38.59.png

I've tried to eliminate some IEMs for which different configurations are available, and for which I had doubts which one was used, and probably didn't include them all, but I considered different tips and insertion depth fair game since that's also exactly what happened in the original comparison. There's probably a few mistakes in there as well, but so will be the case in Jaakko's comparison, it's to be expected with this approach.

I don't really know how Jaakko's comparison was normalised, so I've gone for two normalisations, one at 500Hz, another one across five octaves centred at 500Hz.

Screenshot 2023-06-01 at 08.49.22.png
Screenshot 2023-06-01 at 08.50.17.png
Screenshot 2023-06-01 at 08.49.39.png


That would be the average difference, using REW :
CSGL over Orato AV diff.jpg


I'd prefer to know more about how Jaakko performed the calculation for Crin's average difference before directly comparing them, but so far the magnitudes involved are basically similar.

Are the differences for CSGlinux's coupler representative of the actual difference between their RA0045 couplers ? Most likely (hopefully) not. There are just too many variables at play here, and large, bird's eye view database comparisons of this kind are quite likely inappropriate for that task beyond a certain degree.

Performing my own measurements has not only been quite helpful for my own benefit, it's also helped me a lot to learn how to interpret graphs, so maybe you should go on Aliexpress, purchase a clone coupler, and regardless of whether it's a truly good one or not, get some first hand experience by being confronted to all of these variables.

Otherwise next time, perhaps drop the pretend science posturing and make a modicum of effort to actually engage with, read and understand what you yourself quote. There's just too much easily obtainable data graciously provided by many parties out there to be that casual with it and with such an unconstructive attitude.
 

MayaTlab

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@Cuckoo Studio Your data would be appreciated, if you want to share. Don't pay too much attention to the tone of the previous poster.

@GaryH @oratory1990 uses Crinacles measurements for some of his PDFs, for what it's worth. But it's good to know to what extent each device differs from RA0045. @jaakkopasanen considers Crinacles coupler "solid" per prior correspondance @amirm uses a different GRAS RA0402 coupler, which would also be interesting to see difference data for. (This used to be easier when compiling resolves data was allowed for third parties)

This thread is really worth a read IMO if you're interested in the question of comparing couplers :
And some of the measurements have been compiled here :

I'd really love to see Cuckoo's data if he doesn't mind as, unless there is a misunderstanding on my part, he's been able to compare an original GRAS coupler to his clone, using the same samples and the same operator, which eliminates quite a few variables in the process.
 

crinacle

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Let's see this 'very accurate' comparative data with proper GRAS measurements then. And importantly, for this specific IEM. Here's analysis by AutoEQ's Jaakko Pasanen of the varying response errors of Crinacle's fake clone RA0045 measurements that people blindly trust relative to Oratory's professional measurements using a genuine GRAS RA0045 for many IEMs (which yes, includes unit variation, but that's unlikely to explain all this variance):

index.php

What you should've done is to post the full analysis by Jaakko which actually shows that between all the compared measurement rigs (InnerFidelity, Headphones.com at the time, Rtings), my "inaccurate" coupler actually comes the CLOSEST to oratory's RA0045.

Yes, while it may be hard for you to believe, a clone of the RA0045 performs pretty close to a RA0045 compared to "real" Head Acoustics and B&K IEC 60318-4 equivalents. A shocker.

ZDQ00eh.png


Here is the full statistical analysis by Jaakko of my 711 coupler versus Oratory's GRAS system, which you have conveniently omitted.

And once again, because I know you're going to purposefully ignore it, here is the full analysis by Jaakko showing that data from my coupler comes the closest to Oratory's GRAS data even relative to other public measurement databases using "real" couplers.
 
OP
Cuckoo Studio

Cuckoo Studio

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This thread is really worth a read IMO if you're interested in the question of comparing couplers :
And some of the measurements have been compiled here :

I'd really love to see Cuckoo's data if he doesn't mind as, unless there is a misunderstanding on my part, he's been able to compare an original GRAS coupler to his clone, using the same samples and the same operator, which eliminates quite a few variables in the process.
I am planning to create a separate post to explain some of the questions that may arise in the reviews, and I will add data comparisons to that post. :) This may take some time.
 

AdamG

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I am planning to create a separate post to explain some of the questions that may arise in the reviews, and I will add data comparisons to that post. :) This may take some time.
So while @Cuckoo Studio puts together his separate post/thread, and I highly recommend that he start a new thread about generic questions about conducting reviews. Let’s get back to Topic. The thread drift is sidelining the product review analysis and results.

Please and thank you for your cooperation and support.
 

Spyart

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Uff. People are going mad when make discussion on Iems especially on graphs, thats fun To look at) however the most interesting topic in topic starter reviews is definetely subjective perception of the soundstage. And if you compared any Iem with any headphones he reviewed the measurements war can stop right here because Iems Sound Small and that's it. You can increase some hi end frequencies trying to get perception of height and distance but you cant do that with midbass really. Just put open back headphones on the right ear and some top end in ear on the right and then sweep some sine sweep to get an idea about soundstage in ear.
 

oratory1990

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I use a IEC 60318-4 ear simulator, its data is very accurate. I have compared the differences between 20+ IEMs of its data and the one made by GRAS. I will add this clarification in future content to alleviate concerns about the data.
It might be worth mentioning this post I wrote a while ago, on the topic of "why do measurements of the exact same headphone differ between different measurement sources":
https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/comments/ugofb0
 

alekksander

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curious review.
though… am i the only one not considering harman target as flat? i mean frequency sweep with this "neutral" harman instantly shows how uneven it is. i'm not sure about folks in their forties (yes, gonna report it in one decade too), but as for an average person in their 30s harman is a "shout" with a bit air removed…
 

julian_hughes

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curious review.
though… am i the only one not considering harman target as flat? i mean frequency sweep with this "neutral" harman instantly shows how uneven it is. i'm not sure about folks in their forties (yes, gonna report it in one decade too), but as for an average person in their 30s harman is a "shout" with a bit air removed…
Nobody has ever claimed that the Harman target is flat or neutral. The curve is a description of preference, not neutrality or flatness. It's worth finding out more about it as then the reviews and comments which reference the Harman target will start to make sense. The Harman curves for headphones and IEMs are descriptions of how listeners like headphones and IEMs to sound compared to loudspeakers. Essentially, and measurably, most people like a neutral loudspeaker but when it comes to IEMs and headphones those same people usually prefer a slightly different balance. Much of this is to compensate for the lack of bass feel i.e. moving air and bone conduction. There are some other factors too, as the shape of the ear affects our hearing a lot for loudspeakers, less for headphones and not at all for IEMs. So when you understand that the Harman curves describe *preference* you can begin to find them very useful. Your personal preference is different? That's fine. There is a wealth of measurements based on this commonly accepted target, and you can adjust those accordingly. The great benefit is standardisation.
 

Robbo99999

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curious review.
though… am i the only one not considering harman target as flat? i mean frequency sweep with this "neutral" harman instantly shows how uneven it is. i'm not sure about folks in their forties (yes, gonna report it in one decade too), but as for an average person in their 30s harman is a "shout" with a bit air removed…
But also it's important to remember that all frequencies will not have even loudness due to Fletcher Munson, but also individual hearing quirks. I for instance I have a large hearing boost between 8-12kHz for some reason - as evidenced from Anechoic Flat speakers but also my headphones. And of course, in headphones you can have unit to unit variation and channel imbalances that can cause you to hear swings during frequency response sweeps, etc. And some headphones will have measured dips and peaks in parts of the treble.
 

IAtaman

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curious review.
though… am i the only one not considering harman target as flat? i mean frequency sweep with this "neutral" harman instantly shows how uneven it is. i'm not sure about folks in their forties (yes, gonna report it in one decade too), but as for an average person in their 30s harman is a "shout" with a bit air removed…
No you are not. And not only for people in their 30s either. I do not like Harman IE tuned headphones and find time to be fatiguing as well. Tips, fit, insertion, variations between my ears have been offered as explanation. I don't know what it is. And you do not lose that much hearing in your forties :)
 

alekksander

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Nobody has ever claimed that the Harman target is flat or neutral
yes i thought so too, but then… check first sound performance descriptions – the one with vertical fr. while this review is nice and colorful, i feel it's moving slightly towards "magical" side of audio – not only because it draws fr to the target noting it as flat (to the target, i guess the author meant), but the whole mixing space thing…
But also it's important to remember that all frequencies will not have even loudness due to Fletcher Munson, but also individual hearing quirks
very true and i have to admit i tend to forget about it. my wish is that we somehow standardize it and apply averaged fletcher munson curve rather than preference curve. after all we are here for raw scientific point of view, not folks preferences (weather it was took as scientific research). but… i know, here we go again… ;)
 

charleski

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I apologise for going off-topic here (...), but if anyone's interested I've been using these for several months now as my daily dog-walking headphones. I use Wavelet and constructed an Auto_EQ profile to the Harman 2019 target using the amateur measurements provided by Bedrock. Generally they've been quite acceptable, but I did notice some hardness in the sound on loud passages with lots of treble - this was most noticeable on a live performance of the B minor mass (part of the Gardiner 80th birthday stuff), where the sudden 'Sanctus' sounded rather grating. I went back and adjusted the Auto-EQ to reduce the 900-3kHz region by a decibel or so and this seemed to tame it down. It's possible that this is really just a manifestation of my own sensitivity in the treble range, but thought it might be worth mentioning - it's clearly not distorting.
 

markanini

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As long as we are sharing EQs, mine is very simple:
Code:
Preamp: -2.5 dB
Filter 1: ON LSC Fc 500 Hz Gain 2.5 dB Q 0.510

Graphs quite close to Truthear Zero:Red Bass+ on this IEC 60318-4 coupler:
1685792330788.png
 

Spyart

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On Harman target - small driver need a bit More bass for sure To compete with 50mm over ear driver. But also less hi end due to different directivity. So when you find harman oe target bit too much for over ear - try this of in ear instead in hope To get some kind of tilted diffusion field for Iems. But still... Hi end is tricky with iems
 

Tovarich007

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Has somebody done a careful listening comparison between the Moondrop Lan and the Truthhear Zero, Red and/or standard ?

The measurements of these three budget IEMs are very close, just a little more bass for the Truthears Zero standard and to a lesser degree the Redd (if I remember right the FR graphs), so I think only a careful listening could make a difference, probably quite subtle and depending on everyone taste.
But I'm interested by a feedback.

And will these different IEMs better my old faithful Final E2000 ? The latter sounds very neutral and clean to my ears and the three models are in the same budget price bracket (less than 50 €). I'm attracted by a new budget IEM, at top of my list are the Moondrop and the Truthear Zero but I want to be sure they'll beat my Final.
 

Martin

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All these excellent measuring inexpensive IEMs lately have me intrigued. Thank god I hate having things stuck in my ears.

Martin
 

renaudrenaud

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All these excellent measuring inexpensive IEMs lately have me intrigued. Thank god I hate having things stuck in my ears.

Martin

It was so intriguing I finally bought a pair of Thruthear Zero for my wife. At the moment I was not able to test it (because it's my spouse Zero) I bought the RED model. I cannot see myself to spend to many time with that in the ears. Anyway for less then 50$ both sound excellent. It's good time to be an audiophile!
 

Tangband

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