moon-audio article saying that for shorter than 10 feet, RCA cables have a "stronger signal" than balanced cables. True?

[xaxxon]

Balanced vs. Unbalanced Audio Cables: Everything You Need to Know

Are Balanced Audio Cables Better for Your Audio System? Cables matter. They’re an important part of the equation if you are trying to make your system as clean-sounding as possible. Not all cables are created equal and are oftentimes an oversight in improving the sound quality and clarity of...

www.moon-audio.com

Two bits:

Short length single-ended cables are good for noisy signal environments and for low-level signals from instruments (keyboards, guitars, etc). Because of their native low-level signal, any noise interference is not amplified by more active sources or higher-level/gain signals.

Under 10 feet unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables

Does anyone know what they're talking about and can explain to me if it's true, then why?

This site says the same thing, but it's remarkably similar to the first link - the point where it seems mostly just copied from the moon audio site.

Balanced vs. Unbalanced Audio: What's The Difference? | BoxCast

Learn what balanced and unbalanced audio means for live audio production and why cable types like XLR, Quarter-Inch TRS, RCA, and Quarter-Inch TS are used.

www.boxcast.com

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Under 10 feet unbalanced cables actually have a stronger signal than balanced cables

I've not come across this claim before. What doesn't help is that there isn't a definition of "stronger".

But, they way have worded the second article is poor. "Unbalanced audio works best under 10 feet and in a smaller studio environment.". What they mean is - if you have to use non-balanced runs, keep them under 10 feet.

 

[xaxxon]

I've not come across this claim before. What doesn't help is that there isn't a definition of "stronger".

But, they way have worded the second article is poor. "Unbalanced audio works best under 10 feet and in a smaller studio environment.". What they mean is - if you have to use non-balanced runs, keep them under 10 feet.

Yep, I get all that. And I totally agree "stronger" could mean a bunch of things, but everything I know about hifi setup, none of them would be correct. balanced has higher voltage and a higher SNR coming out of a DAC or whatever.

So yeah, I'm confused what they're talking about but some guy on reddit posted it as a source and I'm trying to give moon the benefit of the doubt....

 

[fpitas]

I don't know what he meant by that. I think a misprint crept in (?)

But he was sure right here!

Also, keep in mind that balanced cables also tend to be more expensive than single-ended options.

I pay three or four bucks for mine at Amazon. Highway robbery!

 

[Speedskater]

OK, at 10 feet or shorter, RCA cables are almost equal to XLR cables. The longer the cables, the more advantage the XLR cables have.
But it's not about just the cables it's the entire interconnect system.
output stage >> cable >> input stage

 

[xaxxon]

I don't know what he meant by that. I think a misprint crept in (?)

But he was sure right here!

Also, keep in mind that balanced cables also tend to be more expensive than single-ended options.

I pay three or four bucks for mine at Amazon. Highway robbery!

I would be wary of the terminators you’d get on a cable that cheap. I’ve gotten ones with quite bad tolerances that don’t plug in right or at all when I don’t get neutrik ends.

So I usually end up paying around $15 per cable but still quite doable.

 

[fpitas]

I would be wary of the terminators you’d get on a cable that cheap. I’ve gotten ones with quite bad tolerances when I don’t get neutrik ends.

So I usually end up paying around $15 per cable but still quite doable.

So far, so good. Admittedly, they hang quietly behind my rack. They don't get pulled or reconnected numerous times like in a pro setting.

 

[JayGilb]

Why are we looking to moon-audio for advice ? It's a few paragraphs followed by pages of advertisement.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yeah, when you mentioned Moon audio, well why would you do that? They have pretty pictures of odd gear. Only thing worth learning from them. As evidenced by this article even in something uncontroversial they don't get it right.

 

[Ricardus]

The article is actually a joke. When they got to talking about balanced connectors, they showed a 7 pin XLR or something instead of a standard 3 pin XLR, and they think you need TRRS and TRRRS Connectors to carry balanced audio. And instead of showing something common like a 1/4" Neutrik TRS they showed some consumer crap molded 1/8" TRRS connector like what Sony gave you with your camcorder.

Just awful.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The article is actually a joke. When they got to talking abot balanced connectors, they showed a 7 pin XLR or something instead of a standard 3 pin XLR, and they think you need TRRS and TRRRS Connectors to carry balanced audio. And instead of showing something common like a 1/4" Neutrik TRS they showed some consumer crap molded 1/8" TRRS connector like what Sony gave you with your camcorder.

Just awful.

Actually that is near the top of the accuracy according to their normal standards.

 

[fpitas]

There are better sources than Moon Audio. I'm sure someone like Sound On Sound has writeups. Bruno Putzeys wrote a nice one, although I can;t find it now.

 

[tomtoo]

Is it 1st of aprile?

 

[fpitas]

https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_The_G_word.pdf

Bruno has little respect for single-ended cabling. I have to agree with him.

 

[DVDdoug]

Typically, balanced connections have twice the voltage because the "+" connection is the same as the unbalanced output and the "-" is its complement which doubles the total differential voltage. But it depends on the circuitry/implementation.

The length doesn't affect the voltage. (In long speaker connection or a long AC power connection you CAN get a voltage drop.)

Plus, Line Level isn't tightly controlled in home equipment and of course it depends on the program and sometimes there is a volume control.

On some active monitors the RCA connection MAY be more sensitive because it's calibrated for "consumer level" and the XLR is calibrated for "pro level".

 

[tomtoo]

Stronger signal means better s/n ratio.
And i not see how rca can have bettet s/n ratio than balanced, if there is not some poor electronic involved. Balanced was invented to have better s/n. And it works. Yes on short distances rca can be nearly the same as balanced. But if rca is better its poor electronic, not the balanced connection.

 

[xaxxon]

Why are we looking to moon-audio for advice ? It's a few paragraphs followed by pages of advertisement.

Someone posted it as a counter source to me saying that XLR is always as good or better than RCA.

I don't believe it to be true, but figured I'd ask around in case I was wrong.

I now believe that I wasn't wrong and this was just a poorly written article that then got copied.

 

[mdsimon2]

I previously thought XLR always had better noise performance than RCA but I have noticed that although the SNR is pretty much always better on XLR sometimes RCA outputs have lower residual noise than XLR outputs. Not saying it is worth the trade off as ground loops are a PITA but it is interesting that the decrease in SNR is not as much as one would expect by just decreasing the level by 6 dB. Interestingly the last three DACs reviewed here show all three cases of XLR vs RCA performance.

EverSolo Z8
XLR: 129.4 dB @ 4 V, 4 x 10^(-129.4/20) = 1.36 uV
RCA: 121.2 dB @ 2 V, 2 x 10^(-121.2/20) = 1.75 uV

This is an example where RCA is worse than expected based on level decrease.

SMSL DO200 MKII
XLR: 122.6 dB @ 4 V, 4 x 10^(-122.6/20) = 2.97 uV
RCA: 120.4 dB @ 2V, 2 x 10^(-120.4/20) = 1.90 uV

Here RCA is actually lower noise.

SMSL D400ES
XLR: 128.3 dB @ 4 V, 4 x 10^(-128.3/20) = 1.53 uV
RCA: 122.7 dB @ 2 V, 2 x 10^(-122.7/20) = 1.47 uV

Pretty much equivalent noise and difference in SNR is just due to 6 dB level difference.

Michael

 

[DonH56]

Handwaving:

• With two drivers (+ and -), a differential signal (XLR) is twice a single-ended signal's amplitude so a gain of 6 dB.
• The two drivers each add noise, but uncorrelated with each other, so do not add linearly but RSS (total noise = sqrt(N+^2 + N-^2), a noise increase of 3 dB.
• Thus you have a net SNR improvement of 3 dB.

Some designs cut back on signal levels or attenuate the input of a differential signal so you may not always see an advantage. Balanced also offers common-mode noise rejection and the ability to isolate the shield from the signal path, providing greater rejection of external noise, and making it easier to break a ground loop.

But, a single-ended design can have a lower noise floor, since there is only one driver and in any event noise floor and signal amplitude can be designed differently for different circuits, balanced or single-ended, so you cannot really draw a general conclusion about one or the other having a lower noise floor. A lot of high dynamic range (120+ dB) RF gear is single-ended, though most serial data links (Ethernet, PCIe, SATA, SAS, USB, etc.) are differential.

HTH - Don

 

[Blumlein 88]