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Monoprice Liquid Platinum Headphone Amp Review

SIY

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I'm just reporting my first hand experience and along with many others with much more experience than me. Avantgarde makes their own ss amp. I've never heard of anyone using it (though I'm sure there must be a few out there).

Unfortunately, what you're reporting is a lot of anecdote containing no actual controlled listening and a lot of lore and social reinforcement. With some slogans thrown in ("The final product- the sound-- is the synergy between components and speakers.").

Bottom line: what you have there is a very expensive effects box that can't be turned off or adjusted from recording to recording. It is the opposite of "transparent." If clean and transparent is "overly analytical" to you in level-matched double blind comparison, then you can always fuzz up the signal in a variety of less expensive ways. Or accept that you're paying the seven long for the story rather than the performance. Either way, it's your money, you can do as you please.
 

ccw

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"Special effects box" seems to be a popular pejorative here. I would invite you to do you own double blind listening test instead of a theoretical single-focus measurement based assessment. Your opinion would carry a lot more weight if you had listened to the amp -- and listened un-sighted even better!

The dogmatic adherence to judging by measurement can lead to it's own errors just as can audiophile magical thinking.

I have little doubt that if you interviewed a range of respected audio designers (both pro and audiophile) you would find they "voice" their products through an iterative process with measurements and ears. This being the case, how does it make sense for the consumer, or reviewer, to base their opinion on measurements only?

I don't think clean and transparent translates to overly analytical. My listening experience with the Berning amp was that it was extraordinarily clean and transparent and this was without any expectation bias as I knew nothing about the amp or Berning. This is precisely why I'm interested in the LTA as an alternative to Set.

And, the casual dismissal of Avantgarde owners "anecdotal" preference for set amps is a bit shallow. One of these anecdotes come from two US dealers for AG who have had the opportunity to test over a dozen amps and have always found they prefer the Set-AG combination. Another from Jim Smith, former US rep for AG, shares the same appraisal. They have no reason to be prejudiced or "victims of social reinforcement." I, for one, have been searching for a non-tube match for these wonderful speakers for years. Tubes are a pita.
 

SIY

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I have little doubt that if you interviewed a range of respected audio designers (both pro and audiophile) you would find they "voice" their products through an iterative process with measurements and ears. This being the case, how does it make sense for the consumer, or reviewer, to base their opinion on measurements only?

I don't think clean and transparent translates to overly analytical. My listening experience with the Berning amp was that it was extraordinarily clean and transparent and this was without any expectation bias as I knew nothing about the amp or Berning. This is precisely why I'm interested in the LTA as an alternative to Set.

If an amplifier designer tells me he “voices” his products, then he’s either designing effects boxes or he’s a phony feeding a story to the gullible, i.e., his target market. A competent amp has no voice.

If you’ve been listening to SETs, I could see this potentially sounding cleaner since SETs are so dreadfully poor at amplification. But not compared to an actual clean amp.

If the story is worth $7k to you, great.

And I see you’re still making unsupported assumptions about what I do and do not do. Don’t let accuracy get in the way of your imagination!
 

YSC

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"Special effects box" seems to be a popular pejorative here. I would invite you to do you own double blind listening test instead of a theoretical single-focus measurement based assessment. Your opinion would carry a lot more weight if you had listened to the amp -- and listened un-sighted even better!

The dogmatic adherence to judging by measurement can lead to it's own errors just as can audiophile magical thinking.

I have little doubt that if you interviewed a range of respected audio designers (both pro and audiophile) you would find they "voice" their products through an iterative process with measurements and ears. This being the case, how does it make sense for the consumer, or reviewer, to base their opinion on measurements only?

I don't think clean and transparent translates to overly analytical. My listening experience with the Berning amp was that it was extraordinarily clean and transparent and this was without any expectation bias as I knew nothing about the amp or Berning. This is precisely why I'm interested in the LTA as an alternative to Set.

And, the casual dismissal of Avantgarde owners "anecdotal" preference for set amps is a bit shallow. One of these anecdotes come from two US dealers for AG who have had the opportunity to test over a dozen amps and have always found they prefer the Set-AG combination. Another from Jim Smith, former US rep for AG, shares the same appraisal. They have no reason to be prejudiced or "victims of social reinforcement." I, for one, have been searching for a non-tube match for these wonderful speakers for years. Tubes are a pita.

I do think it's not the correct justification, set aside the second or third harmonics which some believes makes the sound fuller or warmer or more analog etc. for me I believe that the lack of ringing artifacts in NOS dacs or the 2nd and 3rd harmonics might be desirable for some, I would said that is some kind of design choice, but hell no for a high noise floor and an impedance which will make speakers perform unpredictably! if it's an integrated amp of powered speakers, the designer REMOTELY MIGHT use some of these as tricks to tame the particular speaker limitation, but hell no for a standalone amp product which just might pair with hundreds of different speakers to have those..
 

ccw

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If an amplifier designer tells me he “voices” his products, then he’s either designing effects boxes or he’s a phony feeding a story to the gullible, i.e., his target market. A competent amp has no voice.

If you’ve been listening to SETs, I could see this potentially sounding cleaner since SETs are so dreadfully poor at amplification. But not compared to an actual clean amp.

If the story is worth $7k to you, great.

And I see you’re still making unsupported assumptions about what I do and do not do. Don’t let accuracy get in the way of your imagination!

I'm not clear at all as to what assumptions I've been making? That you haven't listened to the LTA you measured? If you have listened, why be mysteriously silent about it? And if so, I expect double blind...

I understand that the orthodoxy here holds that an amp must be a vehicle of an ideal transparency and that this ideal can and will be revealed to the amp designer through measurements. While I have no tech background to comment with first hand experience, I did do a quick search for comments from a couple of well known amp designers which, to me anyway, show a nuanced approach:

Bruno Pultzey on discovering how drastically increasing negative feedback smooths distortion and that the result is... it sounds good:

"...if you take a simple amplifier which has acceptable distortion (just a second harmonic is what I use as an example) and you start applying feedback, harmonics will appear that were not there originally. Higher-order harmonics, even and odd, turn up out of the blue. So if you apply a little bit of feedback, the second harmonic that you wanted to reduce drops by a little, but out of the blue you get this whole smattering of high harmonics. It is quite understandable that this doesn’t sound good. That observation has been made and published by various people over the years, but the most important conclusion was never drawn: If you keep increasing feedback, if you turn the feedback knob up and up and up, you quickly hit a point where those distortion products all start coming down again and the signal does start getting cleaner. And if you get to very large amounts of feedback, the result is just supersmooth. So that is why I say that it is normal for an experimenter to experience that if you take a good-sounding zero-feedback amplifier and add 6dB of feedback, the result sounds worse. They heard that right. But had they been in a position to add 60dB, well then, suddenly they would have been confronted with a sound that is little short of magical."

On how measurements are his focus, but recognizing that subjective listening acts as a guide

"I very often have to invent new measurements on the fly when I suspect there might be something going on that doesn’t show up clearly on standard measurements."

" You calibrate by ear your set of measurements and the methods by which you measure, but you optimize your circuit by measurement. That is much more logical. You should take science to the absolute limit and crosscheck your scientific, technical procedures with what you are hearing, to make sure you’re not forgetting anything. The purely technical road in the end will yield a circuit that really sounds better than what you can get by mere philosophy and tuning parts."

John Curl, similarly to Pultzey, on hearing being a guide to discovering more revealing measurements:


"While mylars are fairly efficient from a size and cost point of view, we realized they have problems with dielectric absorption. I didn’t believe it at first. I was working with Noel Lee and a company called Symmetry. We designed this crossover and I specified these one microfarad Mylar caps. Noel kept saying he could 'hear the caps' and I thought he was crazy. Its performance was better than aluminum or tantalum electrolytics, and I couldn’t measure anything wrong with my Sound Technology distortion analyzer. So what was I to complain about?
Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line

to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we’re always working in reverse. If we do hear something and we can’t measure it then we try to find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very obvious to everybody."

Nelson Pass:

"Measurements and listening go hand in hand. There is a correlation between objective and subjective, but they're not strictly causal relationships. Clearly, there are some amplifiers that measure great with "standard" measurements but don't sound so good, and there are examples of good-sounding/bad-measuring as well. The discrepancies are interesting because they point to either things that have not been measured—more likely, misinterpreted—or aspects of perception and taste that don't correlate to measured flaws. Or both.

Pass on amps having a sound signature:

"Fundamentally, what interests me most about amplifiers are the differences in sound created by different topologies and the characteristics of the active gain devices. There are few things I enjoy so much as to contemplate the specific (and complex) characteristics of the many transistors (or tubes) and how they might fit into an amplifier to deliver a sound which has a particular signature. Toward that end, I like simple circuits, partly because well-designed, simple amplifiers tend to sound better, and also because they bring the part's personality into sharper relief."

In closing, it seems logical to me that any amp, however transparent or low in distortion is going to have a sound signature when the signal is transduced by speakers. It strikes me as narrow to call an amp that adds some 2nd order harmonic distortion -- particularly when designed, for example, to a particular class of speaker (ie high efficiency) -- an "effects box" ----particularly when one has not listened to said effects box-- (to beat a horse, again-- sorry)
 
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SIY

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I'm not clear at all as to what assumptions I've been making?

...In closing, it seems logical to me that any amp, however transparent or low in distortion is going to have a sound signature when the signal is transduced by speakers. It strikes me as narrow to call an amp that adds some 2nd order harmonic distortion -- particularly when designed, for example, to a particular class of speaker (ie high efficiency) -- an "effects box" ----particularly when one has not listened to said effects box-- (to beat a horse, again-- sorry)

Your "logic" is leading you astray. Or maybe not, but you'd like to lead others astray. That's difficult at ASR.

Note that the LTA does a whole lot more things wrong than "second harmonic," so I think you're being more than a bit disingenuous.
 

ccw

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Your "logic" is leading you astray. Or maybe not, but you'd like to lead others astray. That's difficult at ASR.

Note that the LTA does a whole lot more things wrong than "second harmonic," so I think you're being more than a bit disingenuous.

I'm aware other distortions besides 2nd order are shown in the measurements. My point really, which clearly has no chance to resonate within the orthodoxy here, has simply been that the amp is being slammed and dismissed without listening to it. The reviewer had the amp (which is an unusual design) on hand and apparently had no curiosity.
 

Frank Dernie

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And it's critical what kind of speakers an amp is being paired with. I'm using 107 db horns. They are going to sound hard and aggressive with almost all solid state amps. Sets are almost always better with such speakers, with the exception of the Pass Sit series and the LTA's.
I have some 109dB/watt horns. I have used several amplifiers with them and they have never sounded hard or aggressive with any of them. The only SET I have tried sounded nice enough but a bit woolly and lacking clarity. It was no match for any of the SS amps I have used.
The JOB INTegrated I am using with them today works wonderfully with them. They work fine with a Devialet too.
An acquaintance of mine had Berning amps. He changed them for Devialet, which have a similar conceptual strategy but a completely different approach to the solution. He much prefers the Devialet on his JBL monsters (K2 9800).
A friend has built SITs for several other friends, I don't see the point myself. They sound the same as long as one doesn't need much power and run super hot. Different for difference sake IMHO, some people!
 

Frank Dernie

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My horns, AvantGarde Duo Mezzo's, are pure heaven playing all horns, including trumpets. These are the exact opposite of subdued, lol. Ask anyone with experience with the AG's (including Jim Smith, who is as experienced as anyone with them ) and they will all tell you to use sets. Or Pass sits for ss.
My friend has those AG speakers and the supplier sells SETs to go with them. I took a Devialet D-Premier round to try and the improvement in clarity was a delight. He didn't like it though...
 

Frank Dernie

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I'm not clear at all as to what assumptions I've been making? That you haven't listened to the LTA you measured? If you have listened, why be mysteriously silent about it? And if so, I expect double blind...

I understand that the orthodoxy here holds that an amp must be a vehicle of an ideal transparency and that this ideal can and will be revealed to the amp designer through measurements. While I have no tech background to comment with first hand experience, I did do a quick search for comments from a couple of well known amp designers which, to me anyway, show a nuanced approach:

Bruno Pultzey on discovering how drastically increasing negative feedback smooths distortion and that the result is... it sounds good:

"...if you take a simple amplifier which has acceptable distortion (just a second harmonic is what I use as an example) and you start applying feedback, harmonics will appear that were not there originally. Higher-order harmonics, even and odd, turn up out of the blue. So if you apply a little bit of feedback, the second harmonic that you wanted to reduce drops by a little, but out of the blue you get this whole smattering of high harmonics. It is quite understandable that this doesn’t sound good. That observation has been made and published by various people over the years, but the most important conclusion was never drawn: If you keep increasing feedback, if you turn the feedback knob up and up and up, you quickly hit a point where those distortion products all start coming down again and the signal does start getting cleaner. And if you get to very large amounts of feedback, the result is just supersmooth. So that is why I say that it is normal for an experimenter to experience that if you take a good-sounding zero-feedback amplifier and add 6dB of feedback, the result sounds worse. They heard that right. But had they been in a position to add 60dB, well then, suddenly they would have been confronted with a sound that is little short of magical."

On how measurements are his focus, but recognizing that subjective listening acts as a guide

"I very often have to invent new measurements on the fly when I suspect there might be something going on that doesn’t show up clearly on standard measurements."

" You calibrate by ear your set of measurements and the methods by which you measure, but you optimize your circuit by measurement. That is much more logical. You should take science to the absolute limit and crosscheck your scientific, technical procedures with what you are hearing, to make sure you’re not forgetting anything. The purely technical road in the end will yield a circuit that really sounds better than what you can get by mere philosophy and tuning parts."

John Curl, similarly to Pultzey, on hearing being a guide to discovering more revealing measurements:


"While mylars are fairly efficient from a size and cost point of view, we realized they have problems with dielectric absorption. I didn’t believe it at first. I was working with Noel Lee and a company called Symmetry. We designed this crossover and I specified these one microfarad Mylar caps. Noel kept saying he could 'hear the caps' and I thought he was crazy. Its performance was better than aluminum or tantalum electrolytics, and I couldn’t measure anything wrong with my Sound Technology distortion analyzer. So what was I to complain about?
Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line

to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we’re always working in reverse. If we do hear something and we can’t measure it then we try to find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very obvious to everybody."

Nelson Pass:

"Measurements and listening go hand in hand. There is a correlation between objective and subjective, but they're not strictly causal relationships. Clearly, there are some amplifiers that measure great with "standard" measurements but don't sound so good, and there are examples of good-sounding/bad-measuring as well. The discrepancies are interesting because they point to either things that have not been measured—more likely, misinterpreted—or aspects of perception and taste that don't correlate to measured flaws. Or both.

Pass on amps having a sound signature:

"Fundamentally, what interests me most about amplifiers are the differences in sound created by different topologies and the characteristics of the active gain devices. There are few things I enjoy so much as to contemplate the specific (and complex) characteristics of the many transistors (or tubes) and how they might fit into an amplifier to deliver a sound which has a particular signature. Toward that end, I like simple circuits, partly because well-designed, simple amplifiers tend to sound better, and also because they bring the part's personality into sharper relief."

In closing, it seems logical to me that any amp, however transparent or low in distortion is going to have a sound signature when the signal is transduced by speakers. It strikes me as narrow to call an amp that adds some 2nd order harmonic distortion -- particularly when designed, for example, to a particular class of speaker (ie high efficiency) -- an "effects box" ----particularly when one has not listened to said effects box-- (to beat a horse, again-- sorry)
I think what you have quoted here is what the companies choose to say to convince non-technical customers that there is something special about their product. There are plenty whose lack of aptitude for the understanding of such things makes them ideal customers.
I know one designer who is of the same opinion as you but his background is that of a very skilled technician building stuff. He has never had any technical education and scorns such a thing. People like him can be very persuasive even when, IMHO, quite incorrect.
One other designer I know is the opposite. He knows that almost all of the hifi BS is just that but he has an expensive product so he goes along with all of it from a marketing pov despite laughing about it in private and having a non-barmy system at home.
I do level matched tests when comparing kit btw and blind when feasible.
 
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SIY

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I think what you have quoted here is what the companies choose to say to convince non-technical customers that there is something special about their product. There are plenty whose lack of aptitude for the understanding of such things makes them ideal customers.
I know one designer who is of the same opinion as you but his background is that of a very skilled technician building stuff. He has never had any technical education and scorns such a thing. People like him can be very persuasive even when, IMHO, quite incorrect.
One other designer I know is the opposite. He knows that almost all of the hifi BS is just that but he has an expensive product so he goes along with all of it from a marketing pov despite laughing about it in private and having a non-barmy system at home.
I do level matched tests when comparing kit btw and blind when feasible.

The sad part is that there really are some interesting and innovative design concepts in this product, but they are let down by the execution.
 

ccw

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My friend has those AG speakers and the supplier sells SETs to go with them. I took a Devialet D-Premier round to try and the improvement in clarity was a delight. He didn't like it though...
My friend has those AG speakers and the supplier sells SETs to go with them. I took a Devialet D-Premier round to try and the improvement in clarity was a delight. He didn't like it though...

My experience is the 300b set can bring a sense of weight and depth but the downside can be a thickness particularly with complex music. Hence the LTA trial. I'm also going to listen to the ss Bakoon 13r. Both 25 watts/channel.
 

ccw

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I think what you have quoted here is what the companies choose to say to convince non-technical customers that there is something special about their product. There are plenty whose lack of aptitude for the understanding of such things makes them ideal customers.
I know one designer who is of the same opinion as you but his background is that of a very skilled technician building stuff. He has never had any technical education and scorns such a thing. People like him can be very persuasive even when, IMHO, quite incorrect.
One other designer I know is the opposite. He knows that almost all of the hifi BS is just that but he has an expensive product so he goes along with all of it from a marketing pov despite laughing about it in private and having a non-barmy system at home.
I do level matched tests when comparing kit btw and blind when feasible.

Sure there's plenty of BS in hifi. The marketing is probably mostly BS. That's marketing by nature.

But it doesn't follow that Putzeys, Curl and Pass are BS- ing in these interviews. What I read show them to be exceeding focused on using measurements in their work. I was just pointing out how they use their listening as an essential part of their iterative process.
 

ReaderZ

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IMHO measure a tube amp then asking why put tube in is pointless. Tubes are there to color the sound, and many like it, myself included, back I had HD650 and headphone is my main source for enjoying music, all the well measured SS amp doesn't excite me, tube is the way to go if I only consider sound. Now I don't listen to headphone nearly as much and have to consider space and budget, likely won't get a tube amp again.
 

WHO23

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I happened to spot a 36V LPS designed for the Liquid Platinum on eBay:
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/LPS-36-Low...-Liquid-Platinum-Cavalli-DC-36V-/132862087667>

I did some more browsing and apparently they also have an Aliexpress store selling the same product:<https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...earchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_>

HTB1flpHX.vrK1RjSszfq6xJNVXaN.jpg

HTB1_CxJX0jvK1RjSspiq6AEqXXap.jpg


However on further research, I'm not sure that it is recommended to use an LPS for the Liquid Platinum. Here's a quite from Mr. Cavalli posted on another forum:

"Hey guys, time for a follow up on using various LPSs.​
First, if you haven't read this please go here and read AtomicBob's investigations (and many thanks to AB for taking all his time and expertise to create all of this data):​
I have been thinking on the use of LPSs.​
Keep in mind that the Platinum was carefully engineered to reduce a really good single ended Liquid Crimson amp to a fully balanced Liquid Crimson (Platinum) in a much smaller size and at a much more affordable cost. What of this is important here is that all aspects of the Platinum design, including the SMPS power supply, all work together to accomplish this. The characteristics of the SMPS are part of the design.​
Part of its behavior is its current limiting when over loaded. This overloading happens at turn on for a very brief period of time and the SMPS does its thing by limiting the current. The power circuit in the Platinum is expecting this to happen.​
Using an LPS that does not current limit or has huge capacitors at its output or can otherwise dump a lot of current into the DC jack is definitely a RISK. It is likely out of the design envelope of the power management portion of the amp.​
Though I am not Monoprice I have to recommend that you don't use LPSs with this amp and that you do stick with the supplied SMPS.​
It is designed to perform extremely well with this supply.
clear.png
"​
 
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Skeptischism

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@SIY glad to see you mentioned transformers. I was surprised nobody had mentioned that typically it is the input, output, or interstage transformers that produce what many perceive as 'tube sound', rather than the tubes themselves.
 

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My friend has those AG speakers and the supplier sells SETs to go with them. I took a Devialet D-Premier round to try and the improvement in clarity was a delight. He didn't like it though...
He saw the Devialet, he "saw" it was Class D. he "saw" it was SS... what's there to like ? :p
 
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