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Modern Record Playback?

mike70

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A 1200 mk7, a ifi zen phono, AT vm95ml cartridge and a cheap RCM (even DIY with a vinyl vac 33) is all you need to have stellar results.

Aprox 1500 USD.

With a decent mastered record (used / brand new / from analog master tape / from digital master / whatever) you'll forget about analog / digital / SINAD / DR / blah blah ... it sounds spectacular.

And that's all.
 

DMill

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When you have 500 records and are sure your preference is spinning plastic, sure, spend $5k. $500 would get you excellent results for a newbie. If you love it so much you can resell it for $500 cleaning cloth or some other vinyl tweak with what your budget allows.
 

Angsty

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LP playback will be more expensive than digital but it doesn't need to be crazy. A Technics 1200 GR and puffin is going to get you ~ 95% of what vinyl has to offer, you could do the same with vintage for much less. Spending more gets you nice audio jewlery but I have never seen any measurements which show a large improvement for very expensive TT's , carts, or phono pre-amps when compared to competent lower price gear.
It’s actually remarkable when you read the measurements in HiFiNews (one of the few mags left which do turntable measurements) how little measured difference there is across turntables and cartridges.

The area I see the most difference is in tonearm resonances but even then, different does not always imply worst or better in sound quality.
 

Avp1

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It’s actually remarkable when you read the measurements in HiFiNews (one of the few mags left which do turntable measurements) how little measured difference there is across turntables and cartridges.

The area I see the most difference is in tonearm resonances but even then, different does not always imply worst or better in sound quality.

Measurements for vinyl playback are grossly insufficient. I heard many cartridges from $300 up to $10K and I should say that sound quality improved linear up the ladder to approximately $3000, regardless of how much I didn't want to admit it initially. More expensive cartridges still sounded even better, though with less progress comparing to price increase. The cheapest cartridge I actually liked was Shure v15 v-mr. But there is nothing like that one made today. $1500-2000 will buy you a decent MC cartridge in current market to allow actually enjoying sound from LP. Many will say that it is overkill, also considering stylus life of 1000 hours, but you need to hear to believe what cartridges in that price range can extract from the groove. And building LP playback system is NOT a lifestyle choice. There is no other way to hear vintage records the way they were supposed to be enjoyed when they were made (tube based electronics will be helpful here too).
 
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Angsty

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Measurements for vinyl playback are grossly insufficient. I heard many cartridges from $300 up to $10K and I should say that sound quality improved linear up the ladder to approximately $3000, regardless of how much I didn't want to admit it initially. More expensive cartridges still sounded even better, though with less progress comparing to price increase. The cheapest cartridge I actually liked was Shure v15 v-mr. But there is nothing like that one is made today. $1500-2000 will buy you a decent MC cartridge in current market to allow actually enjoying sound from LP. Many will say that it is overkill, also considering stylus life of 1000 hours, but you need to hear to believe what cartridges in that price range can extract from the groove. And building LP playback system is NOT a lifestyle choice. There is no other way to hear vintage records the way they were supposed to be enjoyed when they were made (tube based electronics will be helpful here too).
I do get it that you’re relatively new to ASR, but on this forum, we actually do value measurements as a way to assess the performance of things that are bound by physics.

I can honestly say that I have had some experiences which go opposite of what the measurements would suggest, but that has been more preference-driven than fact-based.

I don’t really agree that price correlates to performance for many forms of audio reproduction although construction and engineering quality makes a difference which can sometimes correlate to price, up to a point. Sometimes price is simply a means to create perceived consumer exclusivity.

I’m sure that we will agree to disagree on some of these points, but I thought they needed to be stated.
 

Avp1

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I do get it that you’re relatively new to ASR, but on this forum, we actually do value measurements as a way to assess the performance of things that are bound by physics.

I can honestly say that I have had some experiences which go opposite of what the measurements would suggest, but that has been more preference-driven than fact-based.

I don’t really agree that price correlates to performance for many forms of audio reproduction although construction and engineering quality makes a difference which can sometimes correlate to price, up to a point. Sometimes price is simply a means to create perceived consumer exclusivity.

I’m sure that we will agree to disagree on some of these points, but I thought they needed to be stated.

I like measurements - they give a sort of scientific proof. But as I wrote above, there is no reliable and effective measurement set available and widely used. I wish there was one. Until it is invented, I have to use my imperfect hearing for assessment how TT/arm/cartridge/phono preamp sounds.
 

levimax

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I like measurements - they give a sort of scientific proof. But as I wrote above, there is no reliable and effective measurement set available and widely used. I wish there was one. Until it is invented, I have to use my imperfect hearing for assessment how TT/arm/cartridge/phono preamp sounds.
There is another thread where a script developed by member is being used to measure distortion and frequency response using a ADC and a test record. The script is freely available and there is a fair number of postings showing the performance of different carts and TT's and phono pre-amps (complete chain). If you look through these I think makes for some interesting reading. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mm-vs-mi-vs-mc.18636/post-1368720
 

watchnerd

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Hi All
Congratulations to the fantastic site and community.

I write as I am thinking of putting together a high quality (within the formats limits) record playback system.
I'd like to leverage modern technology (as opposed to a pure analog approach).

I am converging to a Technics SL1200G turntable, Parks Audio Puffin Preamp and an Ortofon 2M (black?) cartrige.

I have been away from records for a bit so I'd like to ask if you have any thoughts on the above system. Are there any components that I should consider?

Thank you.

I like everything in this chain except the cartridge.

I have the Puffin and love it.
 
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watchnerd

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Sounds like a great bunch of components, but do you really want to have 5K+ USD invested in a vinyl playback system in 2022?

Ummmm....

Why not, if it makes you happy?

My vinyl front end is about $8K or so (although you can't even buy some of the pieces, like the SME M2-9R anymore), and my ~500 LP collection is worth probably $20-30K.

Is it objectively better than my ridiculously cheaper Raspberry Pi streamer + Roon + Schiit Modius?

Nope.

But it gives me more joy.
 
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mppix

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A 1200 mk7, a ifi zen phono, AT vm95ml cartridge and a cheap RCM (even DIY with a vinyl vac 33) is all you need to have stellar results.

Aprox 1500 USD.

With a decent mastered record (used / brand new / from analog master tape / from digital master / whatever) you'll forget about analog / digital / SINAD / DR / blah blah ... it sounds spectacular.

And that's all.

I'm really considering something like this.

I cannot find any objective information that shows the G or GR to be better than the mk7.
I am not saying that they are the same but I am saying that Technics does not think they need to show that one is objectively better than the others (but they sure do for the SL-1000R)..

I need to have another look at the AT VM95ML, VM540ML, and OC.. but may very well go with the simplest choice..
Pre is likely the puffin.
 
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mppix

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It’s actually remarkable when you read the measurements in HiFiNews (one of the few mags left which do turntable measurements) how little measured difference there is across turntables and cartridges.

The area I see the most difference is in tonearm resonances but even then, different does not always imply worst or better in sound quality.
What would be a setup with objectively good sound quality?
 

dualazmak

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Just for your reference, recently I revived my treasure DENON DP-57L +DENON DL-301II(MC) in my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio system for real-time on-the-fly listening to vinyl LPs;

- Revival of analog LP player (MC cartridge) in my DSP multichannel multi-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo system for real time on-the-fly vinyl LP listening (and digital recording, if needed): #688
- Inside of Audio-Technica AT-PEQ30 phono preamplifier, and successful DIY suppression of inaudible EMF (electromagnetic field) interference noise: #697
- Another comparative listening, on-the-fly vinyl LP vs. Remastered CD: analog piano solo recorded in 1967: #722
 
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mppix

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There is another thread where a script developed by member is being used to measure distortion and frequency response using a ADC and a test record. The script is freely available and there is a fair number of postings showing the performance of different carts and TT's and phono pre-amps (complete chain). If you look through these I think makes for some interesting reading. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/mm-vs-mi-vs-mc.18636/post-1368720

I did not read the whole thread but the AT VM95ML seems to perform quite well. Are there any other ones to look for?
 

dualazmak

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Even though I did not read all through this thread, if MC would be OK and the price would fit within your budget, I like to recommend DENON DL-301 MK2 (DL-301II);
https://www.amazon.com/Denon-DL-301...&qid=1672230313&sprefix=DL-301,aps,269&sr=8-1

WS00005191.JPG
 

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mppix

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I like measurements - they give a sort of scientific proof. But as I wrote above, there is no reliable and effective measurement set available and widely used. I wish there was one. Until it is invented, I have to use my imperfect hearing for assessment how TT/arm/cartridge/phono preamp sounds.

Actually, the science behind phono playback is trivially simple. It marked the beginning of audio recording and everything about is very well understood and can be quantified/measured.
The format was just objectively overcome by something better: an optical stylus reading digital disks (CD) and then no need for disks (high-res/streaming).

Of course, records as a medium are so "limited" that many TT/arm/cartridge/phono preamps color sound (mainly the latter 2) that one can like or not.
The "don't know measurements" is effectively a marketing campaign by an industry that cannot compete but would sure like to sell high priced devices.
 

areinert

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I did not read the whole thread but the AT VM95ML seems to perform quite well. Are there any other ones to look for?
It is a good value, but the VM540ML (and 740) have a more advanced generator that uses 4 magnets which gives better channel separation. Their achilles heel is the high inductance which means you need low capacitance. This isn’t a problem with a Technics like you’re looking at where you can use low capacitance cables. It is with my Rega P3-24, I had to custom order my phono preamp with lower capacitance since the cables aren’t easily swapped. MC has its advantages, but after I had an ex girlfriend destroy the cantilever on a DL-103 ten years ago, I decided I would rather have the ability to replace the stylus assembly if a careless mistake happens than bin a high dollar cart.
 

anmpr1

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1) Measurements for vinyl playback are grossly insufficient. 2) There is no other way to hear vintage records the way they were supposed to be enjoyed when they were made (tube based electronics will be helpful here too).

1) It's not so much that the measurements are insufficient. Someone with the right equipment can measure pretty much anything. For instance, David Rich's cartridge measurements go beyond what most anyone else is doing. The 'problem' is that his measurements don't always correlate well with subjective perceptions. One of his recent cartridges measured poorly in various areas, but was judged to sound good.

2) If you really want to hear 'vintage' records the way they were 'supposed to be enjoyed' you don't need anything fancy or 'modern'. You certainly don't need a $2000.00 moving coil cartridge. In fact you want just the opposite.

I've mentioned Susuma Sakura before-- something of a legend in the Japanese vintage record playing scene. His preferred set up for mono jazz records was a '60s era Garrard 401, Grace oil damped arm (weighted down with extra coins), and a Denon DL-102 mono cartridge tracking at about 5 grams.


If you want to hear what those 45rpm Glenn Miller EPs were 'meant to sound like', you'll need a Rockola with an Astatic #51 ceramic tracking at 8 grams. And so forth...

Authentic is not always what people want, if given the choice. And since it's a hobby, it comes down to what really makes you happy, and what you can afford.

Analogy: when I was younger I rode motorcycles. When I asked one of my enthusiast friends, he told me to get the Kawasaki 500 triple. If I had asked Sonny Barger, he'd have steered me in a different direction, altogether.

Finally, in this hobby, many folks wind up listening to their gear, and not the music. My advice is to avoid that.
 

Angsty

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What would be a setup with objectively good sound quality?
Low wow and flutter, low hum and noise and low rumble for the turntable. Tonearms are less frequently measured, but should be free of ringing resonances, bearing friction and bearing play. Cartridges should have flat frequency response and low distortion at all but the highest frequencies.
 
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