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Modern Measurement Tools Are Tricking Audiophiles Into Trusting Bad Data, Warns Veteran Speaker Designer

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Robocop

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What? It sounds like Andrew doesn't like Erin's measurement results of the Sourcepoint series.

The article says: "Older measurement techniques like time delay spectrometry could separate what the speaker was doing from what the room was doing."
I was under the impression the Klippel system does take room reflections into account and that's the ground breaking feature of the sytem.
He kind of sounds like an angry, out-of-date old man. Just because you don't have to do complicated analysis with a slide rule anymore doesn't mean it's not valid.
Further, Amir and Erin's measurements of the same speaker generally align as do Amir's and the manufacturer.
 
He's more of an expert than me and he seems to make some good points but I humbly disagree with his conclusions. :P

There’s nothing you can do now to measure a speaker that we weren’t able to do with the equipment we at KEF were doing back in the late ’70s.
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OK, but how does that help the consumer if they don't share the data/measurements? I went to the KEF website and I didn't even see an on-axis response curve.

More (good) information/measurements are almost always better!

They weren’t even close,” Jones said. “They only varied by 2 to 3 dB in different frequency ranges. And that’s people who were setting the standards for measuring.”
A 2-3 dB variation might sound minor, but it’s actually an audible difference in speaker performance. So, the fact that measurement experts produced inconsistent results from identical equipment can be a huge issue.
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That doesn't surprise me. There are always variations in analog or acoustic measurements and I'd say 2-3dB is close in this context. If you sent the speaker to two different labs, each with their own anechoic chamber and equipment I wouldn't expect identical results.
 
Once you hear a speaker with an extremely smooth response on- and off-axis baked in, it's very hard to go back. No matter what the form factor, the speakers made in the last 10 years with that attribute differ qualitatively from any that came before. Then you adapt them to the room as best as you can -- and that's no mean feat.
 
Robocop said:
Comment from Andrew Jones UK loudspeaker designer. I think he has some valid points to consider in loudspeaker measuring.

Robert
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What an unfortunate mix of valid and invalid points.

Just to pick one example: Exhibit A is the Klippel system, but one of the 3 main types of errors is speaker vs room, and the entire point of Klippel is that it can disaggregate precisely those two aspects of a typical measurement.
 
DVDdoug said:
OK, but how does that help the consumer if they don't share the data/measurements? I went to the KEF website and I didn't even see an on-axis response curve.
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You need to know where to look. KEF publishes full spinoramas. For example, for their R Meta series:

KEF_R.png
 
You need to know where to look. KEF publishes full spinoramas. For example, for their R Meta series:
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I stand corrected!!! (And crossed-out the misinformation above.).

But, very few manufactures do and I don't mind having independent conformation or (non-conformation).
 
Well, nothing he's saying is exactly wrong. But what or who exactly is he railing against? If he has an issue with a particular reviewer, he should come out and say it (and provide his reasoning). The few trusted reviewers we have with "automated test equipment" don't seem to be violating any of the points he's making. It's also notable that nowhere does he even mention the Klippel NFS (the other Klippel device that is mentioned is not the NFS). We don't need to go back in time to when outrageously expensive anechoic chambers were the only way to get proper measurements (and even then they could not be used for the lowest frequencies).
 
I am also not sure which parts from the article really come AJ (except the few direct quotes which have no explicit source naming) and which were added as interpretations from the author or even AI. I have the feeling that this website consists to the largest part of populistic AI enhanced shallow journalism with not much real content that's why I personally avoid it. Even most images seem to be generic or AI generated.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freelanceWriters/comments/154i4gr/is_unicode_media_legit
 
For those who might miss it, here's the actual talk by Mr. Jones (a little over an hour)


I would be disinclined to take this headphonesty person seriously or trust that they didn't cherry-pick divisive quotes out of context in order to generate a page of ragebait for clicks. That's what they mostly seem to do, in my limited experience.

edit: accidentally misgendered
 
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thewas said:
I am also not sure which parts from the article really come AJ (except the few direct quotes which have no explicit source naming) and which were added as interpretations from the author or even AI. I have the feeling that this website consists to the largest part of populistic AI enhanced shallow journalism with not much real content that's why I personally avoid it. Even most images seem to be generic or AI generated.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freelanceWriters/comments/154i4gr/is_unicode_media_legit
Click to expand...

The website headphonesty is little more than an a.i. screen/text grabbing mishmash of clickbaiting shite designed to cater to the lowest possible denominator.

The article above was collected/grabbed from “The Occasional Podcast” below

“This episode is a collection of interviews that help explore the idea of measurements as they relate to high fidelity audio reproduction from an audio product designer's perspective. Some of the most predominant makers of HiFi gear share their thoughts on measurements, discussing the usefulness, limitations, and greater impact on the market. Includes interviews with Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note UK, Andrew Jones of MoFi, Nelson Pass Of Pass Labs and First Watt, Axel Grell from Sennheiser, Bill Dudleston from Legacy Audio, Rob Watts Of Chord and Peter Comaeu of Quad and Wharfedale.”

theoccasionalpodcast.libsyn.com

The Occasional Podcast: Measurements - What Do Audio Designers Think? Interviews With Pass, Jones, Grell, Watts, Qvortrup, Comeau and Dudleston

This episode is a collection of interviews that help explore the idea of measurements as they relate to high fidelity audio reproduction from an audio product designer's perspective. Some of the most predominant makers of HiFi gear share their thoughts on measurements, discussing the usefulness...
theoccasionalpodcast.libsyn.com theoccasionalpodcast.libsyn.com
 
Somafunk said:
The website headphonesty is little more than an a.i. screen/text grabbing mishmash of clickbaiting shite designed to cater to the lowest possible denominator.

The article above was collected/grabbed from “The Occasional Podcast” below

“This episode is a collection of interviews that help explore the idea of measurements as they relate to high fidelity audio reproduction from an audio product designer's perspective. Some of the most predominant makers of HiFi gear share their thoughts on measurements, discussing the usefulness, limitations, and greater impact on the market. Includes interviews with Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note UK, Andrew Jones of MoFi, Nelson Pass Of Pass Labs and First Watt, Axel Grell from Sennheiser, Bill Dudleston from Legacy Audio, Rob Watts Of Chord and Peter Comaeu of Quad and Wharfedale.”

theoccasionalpodcast.libsyn.com

The Occasional Podcast: Measurements - What Do Audio Designers Think? Interviews With Pass, Jones, Grell, Watts, Qvortrup, Comeau and Dudleston

This episode is a collection of interviews that help explore the idea of measurements as they relate to high fidelity audio reproduction from an audio product designer's perspective. Some of the most predominant makers of HiFi gear share their thoughts on measurements, discussing the usefulness...
theoccasionalpodcast.libsyn.com theoccasionalpodcast.libsyn.com
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So just some (AI based?) very short summary with no reference or sources, not really what I understand under real journalism.

antisuck said:
I would be disinclined to take this headphonesty guy seriously or trust that he didn't cherry-pick divisive quotes out of context in order to generate a page of ragebait for clicks. That's what he mostly seems to do, in my limited experience.
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Actually its a "she" and several team members with questionable not really audio past profiles:
www.headphonesty.com

Meet The Team

Welcome to our “Meet The Team” page, where you can get to know the dedicated individuals who contribute to Headphonesty’s success. Each team member plays a crucial role in shaping our organization. Learn about their diverse backgrounds, roles, and expertise, as we celebrate the collective effort...
www.headphonesty.com www.headphonesty.com
 
Brent Butterworth and Dennis Burger have a great name for that website, which unfortunately escapes me right now.
 
Like almost every article in commercial media, the link in post #1 is a blend of confusing half-truths.
 
notinuse said:
ep, that term has become a sign of stupidity.
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Actually, I've never read a more incorrect conclusion about audiophiles in my life. There are many, many parts of being an audiophile. The fact is, there are no perfect rooms or speakers, but there is a combination that can achieved the users goals by understanding what it takes to make imperfections work when implementing certain correction via room/and electronics.. That requires paying attention to what the data suggest, along with a personal understanding of YOUR ears' capabilities.

I personally have a tendency to lean toward the designer's goals, and it may not be to please a set of rules set down by the perfect set of engineering ears. After all, they made the 1500lb VW Beetle and the 5,000 pound Caddy. Both were engineered with two completely different ideas in mind. There are PA speakers, recording monitors, stage monitors, HiFi, subs and backyard boom box speakers. NONE are perfect or even close to perfect in the wrong environment or if used for something they weren't intended for.

Regards
 
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